When we arrived back from our trip, late Saturday afternoon, we actually decided not to pick up our dog from the boarding facility. This is when I realized how much I was enjoying our break from him. He is a Samoyed. We named him Shasta and he is the most difficult puppy that either my husband or I have ever owned. We were driving past the facility prior to 5:00 PM and could have picked Shasta up. If it had been our previous dog, Casper (a Samoyed Mix), we would have eagerly picked him up, but when my husband, Ray, suggested picking Shasta up, I told him that I was feeling very tired and needed a break from him. He agreed. The following day, we were both feeling sick, so we left Shasta at the boarding place until Monday afternoon. The first day, he was eager to see us, obnoxiously energetic and demanding of our constant attention.
Shasta has been a very difficult puppy for several reasons. He still play bites too hard, he needs two to three walks a day, he can be quite destructive, he wants to be with us constantly and he still, even to this day, is not yet potty trained.
When I first started this post, I thought I was going to tell you everything about our problems training Shasta, yet it appears that I have more to talk about than can be expressed in one post, so perhaps this is going to be another series. Shasta is getting better, but BOY, has this ever been a long hard struggle!!
Play Biting
There are several trains of thought on Play Biting. Some people say that a puppy should not be allowed to bite at all and others say that they just need to learn "Bite Control", which means that they need to learn not to bite too hard.
"Bite Control" is learned by watching the reaction of the victim. It was suggested that we just yell out "No Bite!", "Stop it!" or even just "Ouch!". With our previous dog, Casper, all that was required was the soft command "Easy". Shasta, however, is another matter. He doesn't respond to any matter of yelling. It is really hard to get him to quit. When he gets all excited, he doesn't seem to be able to help himself. He's gotten better, but is still bad at times.
"Don't bite at all"? I've read at least one comment on the subject that says that this isn't even possible. Play biting is just something that puppies do. This resource suggested that "Bite Control", needs to be established prior to 4 months of age. Oophs! Too late! He was 4 1/2 months old by the time I read that.
I've heard two ideas on trying to get the biting to actually stop. Some people say that all you have to do is hold the mouth closed and say "No Bite!". We tried this too no avail. Occasionally, he would bite softer for awhile, yet in a short time, the biting got hard again. Then I watched the vet use this approach. She held his mouth shut for what must have been a full minute and even lightly snapped his nose once in order to get his attention. She said that you have to keep holding him still until he calms down and stops struggling. This actually worked for her, so I concluded that I just wasn't holding the mouth shut long enough. In order to hold the mouth shut effectively, you have to get a hold of the back of the dogs neck and hold him still. The vet had the advantage of my husband, Ray, also holding the dog. When I tried to duplicate what the vet did, this is when the real battle began.
By 4 1/2 months old, Shasta was already big enough and strong enough to put up a big fight. He thought the whole thing was a game. He would jump up and bite my hands and arms and than jump away so that I couldn't grab his neck. This practice would occasionally rip my cloths, so I couldn't ever wear anything nice in his presence. Once I finally did grab him, I had to push him down to the ground and hold his mouth shut. It was a considerable struggle to do so. Once, I had to pin his head down to the ground with my arm around his neck and even so, he would struggle significantly before he would stop. You would think after all this, it would be enough, yet believe it or not, when he finally did calm down and I let go of him, he jumped up and bit me again, as if very eager and willing for round two in our "fun little dog fight". I was not having fun and you would think that he would know that by the very angry tone in my voice.
The other approach to the play biting problem is to ignore and turn your back to the dog. There were times in which this actually worked, yet even this did not stop the biting at the heels while walking away from him. After awhile, I had to ignore him every time he bit me and never pet him or touch him in any way until he licks my hand. Even this did not produce immediate results, but he has gotten better.
Jumping
As to the jumping and biting, sometimes I focus more on the jumping than the biting and when he does jump, he gets a knee in his stomach.
In relation to the jumping, aside from the knee in the stomach, another approach is to step on the back paws. Shasta is usually at an angle, though, that makes this approach difficult. Some other approaches are to teach the dog to come and than sit, or to refuse to pet the dog unless he has all four feet on the ground.
I'm considering something else too. What I like is when Shasta stands next to me and leans against me so I can pet him. He doesn't do this near often enough, so what I'm considering doing now is adding this to his treat training routing. He already knows sit, stay, come and lay down. He won't do any of this without a treat, though. Whether than teaching him to come and sit, what I'd like to teach him is the command "Come Here", while emphasizing the word "Here" because it sounds sort of like "Heel". I've just barely started adding this to the training routine. He has to sit, stay, come and then I say "come Here", while patting my legs and when he doesn't respond, I pull him over into the desired position and pet him while saying "Good Boy!" and giving him his treat. Even this position is different than jumping. I'll let you know later whether or not this works.
Like I said before, when I first started this post, I thought I was going to tell you everything about our problems training Shasta, yet it appears that I have more to talk about than can be expressed in one post, so perhaps this is going to be another series. Shasta is getting better, but BOY, has this ever been a long hard struggle!!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
15 comments:
Sounds like the problem dogs we see on the tv show
on Animal Planet channel. That lady has remarkable success when she 'intervenes'...but being a tv
program, hard to say.
I've basically concluded from all my reading and experience with our own pets that there are a lot of approaches and that each is better for some dogs than others. I think the trick is finding out what approach works for each particular dog. More later. Got to run.
Had a male German Sheperd once, one of my favorite pets but hard to control at certain times. Anytime I went near the leash he got all bent out of shape and then when I took him for his walk he'd pull too hard, he just had a mind of his own. We got him for protection and I think he served that purpose well, loved him though.
Hi Z,
Our dog is right now barking and demanding his walk and because of it, I can not concentrate as well as I'd like, but thanks so much for commenting.
They make devices that help with the pulling problem, we've just never purchased one because we've had sled dog breeds and figure that if they are breed that way, than to try and break the habit is going against what they were breed to do. Besides, when a dog pulls like that, it forces me to walk faster and I need that kind of encouragement in order to get my exercise.
I've been told that teaching a dog to not only stop pulling, but also to heel, teaches them to show more respect for the owner as the lead dog. I've never been that much into the whole obedience training idea, but this one may need it, so we just may need to do it with this one. We may possibly have no other choice.
Here's the thing. You can treat some dogs in a spoiling manner and they still turn out to be good dogs. You treat other dogs in the same spoiling manner and they become complete spoiled brats. I know this because we spoiled our previous dog, Casper, rotten, but though he wasn't entirely obedient, he was actually a pretty good dog. Shasta, however, is a spoiled brat in every imaginable way.
I could write a whole separate post explaining to you what I mean, but you know what! I've got to go now because Shasta just pooped on our floor.
This stupid dog!! We can't even get him potty trained. He's been out twice already, but apparently, did not take care of his business and it is impossible to tell the difference between his barking because he wants attention, or because he wants out of his confinement in the kitchen and his barking because he genuinely has to go to the bathroom.
Generally, the only way to stop spoiling is to not respond to a child or dog's every demand, yet if you ignore a barking dog and guess wrong about what it is that he wants, he may poop or pea on the floor. Like I said, he has been out twice, but apparently, did not take care of all of his business. You can not believe how frustrating this has been.
I should have walked the dog before getting on the computer, but I feel so annoyed that just putting him outside in our yard and making sure that he goes pea is not enough.
It's never too late to train a dog. However, it becomes increasingly difficult as they age for no other reason other than the fact they have gone so long without having their behavior trained otherwise.
The key is to start early. That he's not yet potty trained seems very odd.
As for the jumping, put a drag line on him so that he can't get enough leeway to jump. Winston still jumps up occasionally but we ignore him until he sits. And, because he sooo wants us to pet him when we come home or what have you, he usually gets the message after jumping up only a couple of times. Sometimes he'll jump up and put his front paws on the counter to scope it out to see if there is anything good up there. When I tell him to get down he always does.
As for the biting, a little bit of biting shouldn't be a problem provided the dog understands when it's become too much. With Winston, we can play around and he'll mouth my arm some and growl but he always knows I'm in command. So, if I tell him in the middle of a session to sit or give me a kiss, he always will.
Like I say, starting early and getting into a repetition is the key. Dare I say, my beloved, at 5 months, is already primed to take the Canine Good Citizen's test.
Hi Soap,
Sorry I was so long in getting to your comment, now that I have, I did that crazy thing to I do too often and wrote a response that is more than a page long. I need to go take our dog for his evening walk before I can come back, proof read and submit what I wrote.
You know Soapbox,
I guess I'll submit what I wrote in two separate comments, since what I wrote is so long.
Maybe I should do another whole post on potty training, as well as a few of our other discipline problems. He has been getting better, though. It just really takes a lot of time.
When you first get a puppy, there are so many NOs that it is hard to know where to start. We've been prioritizing and as time passes we get stricter and stricter on more and more things.
For example, at first, he got into absolutely everything in the living room, including blankets, pillows, furniture, coats, clothing, nick-nacks, books, magazines and even the carpet and the curtains, but eventually, he's began to let everything alone except socks, shoes, and tissue and papers from the trash can.
I guess he learned rather quickly which behaviors would cause us to band him back to the kitchen and which ones would simply cause us to chase him around the room and remove the items from his mouth. I guess if we get too tired of the behaviors that continue, we will get stricter with him in time.
He used to pull up the grass by the roots and dig in the yard. For some reason, he has finally stopped doing that. I guess repetition does pay off, but there are a few remaining behaviors that are more stubborn.
The jumping and biting is one of these stubborn behaviors that still persists to this day. It's not quite as intense, though, as is described in the above post.
I stopped the holding the mouth shut approach after awhile because it only resulted in the above described "dog fight". Ignoring and turning my back to him works better, yet play biting is still his favorite game and he just about always gets too rough when he's excited. It's just one of the stubborn behaviors that continues after a few of the other behaviors have been broken.
His attention span for any other game; Fetch, Tug-a-War, Chase, Chewing on Chew Toys or what ever; is limited and he eventually loses interest and starts play biting again. This wouldn't be so bad if he was gentle, yet it always escalates and we end up having to ignore him or put him back in the kitchen until he calms down again. I assume he'll get it eventually, but this particular behavior is a stubborn one that he doesn't seem to want to let go of.
Shasta play bites when he is groomed and occasionally when all we want to do is pet him and he jumps and bites when I'm trying to put his leash on. I got to the point in which I would tell him to sit and give him a treat to distract him so that I can put his leash on him in peace.
Hello again Soap,
I wouldn't say that there hasn't been any training going on from day one when we picked Shasta up. Believe it or not, he does sit, stay, come and even lie down when we give him treats, but he will not do any of the above without treats.
As to the potty training, I've heard that it is not as uncommon as some might think for some dogs to not be potty trained until 6 months or more. There are a number of reasons for this, I've just been having a hard time finding one that fits Shasta.
For example, some dogs have a problem known as "Submissive Peeing". They will pea when ever their master arrives home and the answer is to ignore the dog until he gets past the initial excitement and can greet you more appropriately. Shasta does not pea as a greeting, so this doesn't fit him.
Another problem is "Separation Anxiety", which can cause not only destructive chewing, but also peeing. This happens while the owners are away from the house. Shasta pees when we are home.
My own theory is that it is part of his rebellion and attempts to get attention. He will do absolutely anything to get attention, including peeing on the floor.
We've even made some progress in this area. We discovered that no amount a scolding was enough, so we had to remove all rewards, including the reward of being put outside when he pees. I will take him outside on the lease until he pees again, but I will not release him in the yard. Instead he gets a 20 to 30 minute "time out" confinement in the hall, during which he is completely ignored, no matter what he does in order to try and get attention.
We even added giving this dog treats when ever he responds, while outside, to the command "Go to the Bathroom", by doing so. It truly amazes me to what extent one has to go with some dogs.
Our other dog, Casper, was so much easier. We usually only had to tell Casper two or three times, all the same things that it has taken Shasta months of repetition to master and it seems to me, Casper was potty trained within a week or two. He was not treated any differently than Shasta has been, he was just more obedient or smarter. I'm not sure which.
"I guess he learned rather quickly which behaviors would cause us to band him back to the kitchen..."
Part of the problem right there I'm afraid. You should have relegated him to the kitchen almost exclusively from the get go and for the first 3-4 months. Giving a puppy free reign to a living room rought with goodies is asking for trouble. It overstimulates their senses and thus you end up with behavior you're not likely to be too happy with.
"but he will not do any of the above without treats."
I'm sorry to hear that. You may have to try to the "fake 'em out" approach. Letting him know that sometimes he may get a treat but sometimes he won't. Of course he'll never which times will result in a treat so that should inspire him to perform the command regardless.
The other thing that comes to mind for me regarding Shasta is, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you got Shasta at 8 weeks didn't you??
And, if I remember correctly, he was flown on a plane from whence you got him at that time wasn't he?
They say that puppies enter a "fear period" around that 8 week point. The suggestion is that puppies at this age shouldn't be subjected to anything too unfamiliar to them as it can have a long term affect (much more so than other periods in their life). Some dogs aren't affected too much by it. However, some dogs can be affected by it.
That could have something to do with it.
Hi Soap,
Part of our problem is that we missed our previous adult dog so much that we were eager to have all the benefits of an adult dog, such as his company with us in the house, as well as other places, such as the car. We left him in the car alone too soon as well and he damaged the panel on one of the doors. My husband was really upset.
Since the Samoyed is one of those high energy breeds, I hate to confine him too much, yet I'm finding that I don't know as much about puppies as I thought I did and that young puppies are usually confined quite a bit and somehow they do handle it.
Our previous dog, Casper, did not do much without treats either, but I was so surprised and relieved one day when I saved his life by desperately yelling "STAY" when he was about to run towards me across traffic. I guess he heard the desperateness in my voice and decided to obey. As soon as the car had passed and the road was clear, I called him.
Neither Casper, nor Shasta, have ever had a choke collar on. This is partly due to my husband, Ray's, bad experience with one of his previous dogs, Brownie. An irresponsible dog trainer, in the attempt of showing Ray that the choke collar will not hurt the dog, lifted Brownie all the way off the ground and let him hang by the neck on the choke collar.
I guess he proved his point that it will not KILL the dog, but MAN!! It doesn't take a genius to know that that's not a very kind thing to do to a dog. Ray didn't hire the dog trainer and Brownie learned to dislike the leash and did not enjoy going on walks. Ray distrusts dog trainers, but with Shasta, we may do it anyway.
I read that "fear period" thing too and was wondering about it even before the dog was shipped. It just so happens, 8 weeks is when most puppies are shipped because the airlines will not accept them until they are that age. Shasta is afraid of the strangest things, such as the sound of opening and closing windows and of all things, the oven door. I wonder what that sound reminds him of.
Was reading last night about how it is thought dogs became domesticated. It is thought that they were the first animal to be domesticated, about 15,000 years ago (although paleoarcheologists love to argue tenuous dates)..one of the few wild animals that the
primitive hunter/gatherer types adopted as very young that became tame over the generations. The synergy was the advantage of the
'free handout' for being a night guard. Which leads to
canine psych 101 . It is probable that the very young dog has an inate learning ability in the area of 'how to get along' with the human who has replaced the pack
'alpha'. Perhaps, also, in some
dogs, there is a natural tendency to sort of fight the system and
'move up the ladder'..contesting for the alpha role. IMO, this tendency is stronger in those species which identify strongly with one master. Not of much help, but patience is best until Shasta
reaches the next level of maturity. ...I think. :)
Hi BB,
I was beginning to think that I was going to have to do another post before I'd receive any more comments, but I guess not. Thanks for your reply.
I wonder at times if the Northern breeds (sled dog types from Alaska, Syberia and the like) are a little more wild and less domesticated because they are not as far separated from their distant cousin, the Wolf. This is why they are often more independent and difficult to train. Our previous dog, Casper, had Samoyed in his blood, but he was not a thorough breed.
I was just thinking about the pack "Alpha" idea and have been questioning it a little because though on the one hand, a lot can be accomplished by taking on the "Alpha" role, sometimes and in fact even often, the answer is to ignore the dog. Though jerking on a choke collar may show some Alpha Leadership, Authority and Assertiveness; Ignoring is more of a Passive role.
A lot of dog training can be explained by a simple model of rewards and consequences.
I couldn't help thinking that it was a little bit of a contradiction when I am at first told to take charge and be the "ALPHA dog", by holding the mouth shut and commanding the dog "NO BITE" and then later told that the best approach is to Ignore the dog until he behaves. At least in this case, the answer that works best is the more passive approach, whether than the take charge approach.
I continue to be convinced that Shasta acts up for the sake of getting attention. I made sure that peeing on the floor no longer worked because it generally got him a time out in the hall, whether than a million trips outside, trying to get him to pee.
When peeing no long worked, than Shasta come up with other behaviors in order to get our attention, such as unrelenting barking, and when that no longer worked, he started acting up in other ways by getting into something, chewing on the gate or spilling his water dish on the floor.
I sort of figure that when it is cool and raining outside, he is no longer spilling the water so that he can lay in it cause he feels hot. At this point, there must be some other motivator, such as the desire for attention. The answer once again is IGNORE THE DOG!!. Of course to successfully do this, we have to totally and completely puppy proof the kitchen and even temporarily take away the water dish. What a puppy!!!
One of my nieces had a half grown dog that was problemsome: dug under the fence and bushes, chewed up rugs and demanded more attention than they (who both worked outside the home) could give to it. Then, in one of those
'moments', she saw another dog on TV, from the humane society and rushed out and got it. Darndest thing, with the TWO dogs, they keep each other company and are quite content. (Not to double your trouble or anything) :)
I've considered that. Ray doesn't want another dog because it doubles the cost of everything; vet bills, food, etc.. Actually if the two of them keep each other occupied and are therefore less destructive than maybe not.
I've often wondered how people potty train two dogs at once. Unless you actually catch them in the act, there is no way to know which of the two is the guilty party.
Dogs generally stop chewing after awhile when all their teeth are finally in. They usually stop the excessive digging too. I'm not sure why. If only Shasta would realize that if he would just behave, he would have the run of the house and could be with us more.
I wonder if I should add that I was frustrated just now as I was writing my last comment above about removing the dogs water dish so he will not spill it when I find it necessary to ignore him.
Well, I heard the sound of scratching and splashing and had to go out to the kitchen complaining to my husband who had given the water back to him. I told him that I had taken the water away because I needed some peace and did not want to be bothered. Fortunately, he said "Ok, Go back to what you were doing and I'll clean it up."
Ray's been trying to make a table that is high enough that he can't splash out the water, but he still puts his paws up on it and spills it out.
Hi BB,
You know; I want to thank you for the links you left me above. I just took the time to view the videos from the tv show and read the Psych. 101 article. That is a very interesting article. Thankyou.
Post a Comment