Saturday, April 16, 2011

More Compromise vs. Gridlock/Return to Politics

This is the Second Half of Summary of an Earlier Long Comment ThreadThe First Half  was about Relationship Analogies and Two Parties Walking  to the Middle of a Bridge.  This is Summarized in the next Post DownThe Second Half of that Comment Thread, which is Summarized Below, is more About Politics, as well as the Definitions of Words.

In the 24th Comment (April 12, 10:47 AM), I Encouraged People to Return the Discussion to Politics and they did.  My April 12, 4:31 PM Comment was Sort of Transitional.  I Explained how the Relationship Between Republicans and Democrats is not Unlike a Marriage and that is why the Earlier Compromise Analogies are not Irrelevant.  In Both Marriage and also Politics, we Need to Compromise, Listen to Each Other and Show Compassion.  Yelling and Screaming and Calling Each Other Names does not Resolve the Conflicts.

From this Point, we Talked about Concepts such as Extremes, Rewards and Bribes, Negotiation and Compromise, Voting Third Party, not Voting at All, Etc.

It's too Hard to Summarize all of this, so I'm just Going to Repeat a Few Definitions.

From BB-Idaho;
Business Psychology States:
"a compromise situation is created when each party to the conflict gives up something and there is no winner or loser.  If one party concedes ground on a particular issue, one would expect the other to yield something of equivalent value.  This style is reflected in intermediate amounts of assertiveness and cooperativeness." (BB-Idaho, April 9, 4:02 PM)
Compromise is a noun:
"a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands." 
Negotiate is a verb:
"'To confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement' -so that a compromise may (or may not be) the result of the process of negotiating."
Bribe is another verb:
"Something given or taken with an intention to influence the conduct or judgment of the person receiving it." (BB-Idaho, April 13, 3:59 PM)

From the Soapster;
"When you negotiate you gain something of greater value without sacrificing your fundamental premise.

"When you compromise, you gain nothing of greater value while conceding your fundamental premise to your opponent."
(Soapster, April 13, 11:20 AM)

Now From Me;
I Think I Like BB's First Definition of Compromise Best.  I Only Added to it in One of my Comments that the Words "Equivalent Value" should be Changed to "Perceived Equivalent Value", since so much of what Needs to be Compromised is Subjective. (Lista, April 13, 10:17 AM)

Soapster's Statements  were more of a Description than a Definition and in my Next Couple of Comments that Followed his, I said...
Huh?  Interesting.  I Wonder where you Got that Definition.  Another Way of Saying the Same Thing is that we Should Never Compromise Our Fundamental Premise, but we Can Compromise Other Things that do not Hinder Our Fundamental Premise.  The Only Difference Between what I said and what you said, Soap, is the Definition of the Word Compromise.
Actually, Soap, Your Second Sentence Sounds more Like a Sell Out, than a Compromise.   That is Walking all the Way Across the Bridge, when your Opponent is not Even Willing to Come 1/4 of the Way Across the Bridge and I have Stated Very Plainly that there is Absolutely no Valid Reason for Doing that.
Towards the End, we got Talking about Voting Third Party.  If you would Like to Respond to that, then just Start Reading the Comments from here;  (Soapster, April 14,5:58 AM)

13 comments:

BB-Idaho said...

Considering "In Both Marriage and also Politics, we Need to Compromise, Listen to Each Other and Show Compassion. Yelling and Screaming and Calling Each Other Names does not Resolve the Conflicts."
..arguably, it may just
worsen the conflicts. The odd thing is that whatever the conflict both sides are convinced they are right. Probably why independents are the deciding factor in elections?

Lista said...

Yes, that's Right. Independents and Moderates are the Deciding Factor in both Elections and in the Voting that Takes Place in the Congress. The Goal of both Extremes is to Pull as Many to these Deciding Votes as Possible Over to their Side.

BB-Idaho said...

Kind of interesting-
""Equivalent Value" should be Changed to "Perceived Equivalent Value", since so much of what Needs to be Compromised is Subjective."
...subjectivity/objectivity and the inevitable need to define. One definition:
"Definition of Objective and Subjective:
Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations.
Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures."
...and of course there are
any number of definitions, from fluffy to awfully rigorous (depending likely on the "subjective" bias of the definer). IMO, in
the arena of human + human,
we find a preponderance of
subjective thought, probably of necessity.
The most difficult part of critical thinking is the
elimination of the tendency to agree with
others or media which supports our preconceived
thinking. Thus we find that a great deal in political discussion,
while in science or medicine, objectivity is a prerequisite.
...of course I'm just speaking subjectively here...:)

Lista said...

As I was reading your definitions of Objective and Subjective, BB, I realized the the Focus of your definitions was on the evaluation of truth, yet this does not account for the reality of Preference and of Relative Truth. Absolute Truth is Objective, yet Relative Truth is Subjective.

Absolute Objective Truth is External and Relative Subjective Truth is Internal. You see, your definitions do not account for a Subjective Internal Reality.

For Example, One Person may eat a certain food item and say. That Tastes really good and another may eat exactly the same food item and say, Yuck!!! Whether this difference in opinion is due to a Mental Factor, or some actual real difference in the Taste Buds is subject to debate. We can not disregard, though, the very likely existence of very different Internal Realities.

As to Preferences, who Knows what actually causes one person to like one type of Movie and another person to like another Type of Movie? Is this due to Genetics, or to Conditioning based on Past Experiences? The answer to this question is not totally obvious, yet what we do need to admit is that Separate Internal Subjective Realities do exist and that we need to respect the Internal Subjective Realities of others.

Lista said...

In Relation to Politics, the Subjective Internal Realities that I am the most Concerned with is the Amount of Effort that any given person has to put forth to achieve the same external result. To Claim that this is the same for everyone is to deny the reality of Experiences that are Relative and Subjective.

In this Context, Subjectivity is a Reality, not just a Perception. Just because it is an Internal Reality, rather than an External, Objective Reality, does not make it any Less of a Reality. Just because it is not Possible for another Human to Look into the life of another and Objectively Confirm that the Reality is exactly as the Person has described, does not mean that this Internal Reality is not Reality.

Just as not Every Reality that exists can be Observed Scientifically (that is Objectively) does not mean that there is not an Internal Reality there that is not just as much Reality as that which is External and can be Confirmed Objectively by Others.

I Guess what I’m Trying to say is that it is not Correct to Assume that that which is Subjective (Meaning Not Confirmable Outside of Ones Own Personal Internal Experience) is only an Irrational Perception and not a Reality. Just because there is such a thing as Relative Truth, some of which can not be Confirmed Objectively, does not Mean that that which is Relative is not Truth.

The Reason why Compromise is Necessary is because of the differences in the Preferences and Internal Realities of people. Not everything that exists is Absolute and not everything that is subjective and relative is False Perception and not Reality.

BB-Idaho said...

I was thinking objective vs subjective and did not mention 'truth'. Now Pilate
asked about truth, and there are hundreds of definitions in the annals of religion and philosophy.
Seems one of those areas where we might revert to
black/white...the antonym of true is false. So, we
have true or false on 'objective' tests, while
we have to write a couple paragraphs when we take a
'subjective' test. Gray area-wise, we need consider that most rational humans would agree
that the square root of 16 is 4, but many folks would disagree that, for example,
climate change is anthropogenic, Lady Gaga is a good singer or that unicorns once existed. It seems fair that the first example relates to objectivity, the latter three to subjectivity.
As for truth: if you can demonstrate that 4 x 4 does not equal 16, then you will have proven it false.
As far as "Just because there is such a thing as Relative Truth, some of which can not be Confirmed Objectively, does not Mean that that which is Relative is not Truth."
is a bit odd: one of Christianity's major criticisms of 'secular humanism' is
the perception that it depends on relative truth.
Really now, isn't something that is 'relatively true' akin to being partially pregnant? ..guess we need to compromise on this :)

Lista said...

"I was thinking objective vs subjective and did not mention 'truth'."

I Know and I was simply Pointing Out that these words are often used along with the concept of Truth and that includes both Objective, Absolute Truth and Subjective, Relative Truth. All I'm saying is that Relative Truth may still be Truth, for to the Person with the given internal Reality, what they are Experiencing is a Very True and Real Reality.

That which is True is Real, not Illusion. The Internal is Often Referred to as Subjective, yet does that Make it an Unreal Illusion? Does that Make it Perception and not Reality? Isn't that which is Experienced Internally just as Real as that which is Experienced Externally and that which is Experienced by everyone, rather than just by the One having the Internal Experience?

The Phrase, "Relatively True" is not the Same as Relative Truth. The Phrase "Relative Truth" Refers to that which is True for some people and not Others, not to Degrees of Truth, as Compared to Degrees of Pregnancy.

For Example, the Truth of Dark Skin on People is not an Absolute, but instead is Relative to those who have Dark Skin.

All that Christianity is Really Opposed to is the Idea that ALL Truth is Relative and there are no Absolutes. Just because ALL Truth is not Relative, though, does not Mean that there is no such Thing as Relative Truth.

BB-Idaho said...

Well, it is interesting "For Example, the Truth of Dark Skin on People is not an Absolute, but instead is Relative to those who have Dark Skin."
..that skin color variation
is quite broad. From an objective standpoint, we might consider the cause:
melanin, a skin pigment.
It's amount in the skin is
genetic, hence dark skinned races. In lesser amounts, we find sunburn, suntan and freckles. Lack
of this pigment results in
albinism, a genetic abberatiton. I'm not sure
how this would be viewed
'subjectively', nor what
the 'truth' of the matter is. But, so far that is the extent of our knowledge of the phenomenon...unless we
project our bias into the matter.

Lista said...

You know what I think is going on here, BB. I think that you may be stuck in the Scientific Definition of the Word, "Subjective". In Science, Subjectivity is not allowed, yet in real life, if I was to say, "I'm Hungry", that statement relates only to myself and is therefore Subjective.

One of the Definitions of Subjective is "Peculiar to a particular individual, Personal". Preferences and Biases are not the Same Thing. "Biases" have to do with Judgments about External Truth. "Preferences" just have to do with what a Person Enjoys and Likes. "Biases" can Distort our Perception of Truth, yet what we Enjoy and Like is a Truth within us that simply is.

Though this is Subjective because it is Relative to Individuals, this does not make it Untrue. To the Person, it is True. If I say that I am Hungry, I am Accurately Describing a Sensation inside of myself. If I say that I am sad or happy, these are Accurate Statements even though they are Subjective.

Not Everything that Happens inside of our Minds and Hearts can be Studied and Researched by Science, but that doesn't make these things any less of a True Reality.

There are some People out there who do not seem to have the ability to Understand any other Subjective Reality, other than their Own.

Too Assume that that which can be Evaluated Objectively is all that Exists is a Very Limited View of Life, Reality and even Truth.

Getting back to the Theme, though, that which is Subjective is that which Requires Compromise.

BB-Idaho said...

Interesting offshoot of compromise and negotiation
is the concept ot 'negotiating from a
position of strength and the converse, negotiating from a position of weakness involving the BATNA principle: best alternative to a negotiated agreement..
thus we add to the complexity of subjective objective, the positions of strength and weakness.

Dave Miller said...

Lista, wow you leave the country for awhile and everybody goes comment crazy...

I came across this article by Tim Rutten. He talks about America and the political divide and why compromise is so elusive.

I thought it might be a worthwhile, albeit late, addition to the discussion

Dave Miller said...

Oops, here's the link...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rutten-pew-20110507,0,5662666.column

Lista said...

Thanks Dave,
I've been Caught Up on another Blog, Debating with a Long Winded Commenter. The Post now has 175 Comments on it. Unbelievable!