Since my Previous Post has Reached 41 Comments and I Often Try to Limit the Length of my Comment Threads to..., Oh, I don't Know. I guess to 50..., And since some Time has Passed since I Last Posted anyway, it is Time for me to Post Again.
As I Pause Briefly from Politics, it is not as if I do not Know What I want to Post about Next. I Imagine my Next Post after this One will be Based on the Last Link that was Posted in the Comment Section of my Previous Post, yet for some Reason I Feel the Need to Pause before I Continue with that Subject.
There are Still Things that Over Whelm me at Times and I am Gradually Learning how to Manage the Stress. One Thing that I Keep Forgetting is the Need to Stop and Ask God for his Help, which I am Doing Right Now. Sometimes it just Feels more Right to Pause Briefly from Politics and Say Something that is more Spiritual.
Funny. I didn't Know that I was Going to be Posting what I am Actually Thinking about Right Now and yet this is the One that Feels Right to me and it is Something that I Wrote Earlier Today in the Comment Thread Below a Post at Someone Else's Blog. The Subject was Sociology, Behaviorism, Psychology and Control and not Politics, yet at the End, I'm Going to also Make a Statement about Politics as well. Whatever is not in Italics was Added Later for the Purpose of this Post. Here's what I Wrote...
"I Find it Interesting that you are Criticizing Sociology and when I Think about Sociology, Especially that which is Connected to Behaviorism, I Find that I have Issues with it Myself and the Reason is because it is all about Control, that is the Controlling of People's Behaviors through Rewards and Punishments.
"The Problem is that Some People Simply can not be Controlled and the Reason Why is because there are People who are Willing to Make whatever Sacrifices Necessary for the Sake of what they Believe and they will Endure the Punishment and/or Lack of Reward for the Sake of those Beliefs. This is the Reason why Most Psychologists (Non-Behaviorists) realize that it is Necessary to Change the Way People Think and not just the Way in which they Behave. Only this can Result in a Change that will Actually Last.
"Changing Beliefs, though, is Difficult as Well. In Christianity, we are Taught that it is God who Changes the Hearts of Men. In Light of this, any Real Change has to Come from God, so the Best that any of us can do is just Submit to Him and Pray for those who are Caught up in an Error.
"Neither Government, nor Sociology, nor even Psychology can Change the Hearts of Man. Only God can do that."
These are the Sort of Spiritual Thoughts that Make me Wonder if even the Practice of Blogging About Politics is Worth it. Though when I Originally Wrote this, it was about Sociology and Psychology, the Idea that it is God who Changes Hearts is also Connected to the Fruitlessness of Political Debate. I don't know that Debate is Necessarily Fruitless, yet what I do Know is that if there is Any Chance at all that the Debate is not Entirely Fruitless, it is the Pausing and Focusing on God that will Make the Difference.
It is for This Reason that I Deliberately Slow Down my Blog and am not in a Hurry.
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18 comments:
"The Problem is that Some People Simply can not be Controlled and the Reason Why is because there are People who are Willing to Make whatever Sacrifices Necessary for the Sake of what they Believe and they will Endure the Punishment and/or Lack of Reward for the Sake of those Beliefs."
Good summation of why I am Black and White and dat don't mean I'm right and another is wrong. G-d revealed that simple truism to me a while back and it will all git sorted out in His good understanding way.
Hey, Man of Wonder,
I haven't seen you Over Here in Awhile.
So we are Back on the Black and White Theme Again. Well, the Other Problem with the Black and White Idea that is Negative is that sometimes the Phrase is Used in Relation to Discouraging Compromise. Now if we are Talking about not Compromising Our Values, that is One Thing, yet I've Seen this Idea Carried so Far that the Person would not even Compromise his Preferences and Wants for the Sake of what Someone Else Prefers and Wants.
This is the Point at Which Black and White Becomes a Negative because there are Compromises that Need to be Made on this Level in Order to Make a Relationship Work.
In Christianity, we are also Taught about Forgiveness and Grace and yet God is Holy. Since God is Holy, Grace is sort of Like a Compromise of God's Justice and Righteousness. God Knows that we are not Perfect Like He is, so even though He is Holy and Perfect, He had to Allow us to be Imperfect. The Conflict here was Significant Enough in Order to Require Blood to Atone for Our Imperfection and this is why Jesus had to Die for Our Sins.
You have Said before that you Find me Difficult to Understand at Times and I do Hope that you Understand what I am Saying now. If you do not, then I Really do Hope that you will not be Afraid to Ask me Questions, because I Really do want you to Understand me if you are Able.
What the Above Post is Actually about is Control and Manipulation, yet it is also about Remaining True to what we Believe and also being Patient in Our Realization that it is Only God that Changes Hearts.
hi there Lista...this line hit me: it is Necessary to Change the Way People Think and not just the Way in which they Behave. Only this can Result in a Change that will Actually Last....most will never work on changing their negative thinking and that is a tragedy..nice post Btw:)
rewards and punishments are a part of the natural way of life.
even a man living alone on an island will know the rewards and punishments of his own actions.
so, a person needs to know the rewards and punishmnts that result from acts of free will as opposed to the rewards and punishments that are the result of acts of determination.
how do you make this distinction clearly so as to ascertain when control is the ultimate end?
It is very hard if not impossible to change people's beliefs even when you back them into a logical corner, in fact at that point they seem to attack all the more. People find me hard to understand at times too. I'll pose a question or insight and they seem to stray. I like the pace of your blog. I've been meaning to slow down myself.
Thanks, all of you, for Dropping By and also Commenting. You are Three of the One's who do not Comment as Often and it is so Good to see you.
Angel's Quote may have been Barrowed from Griper's Blog. I'm not sure if he Said that Exactly or not. I'd have to Go and Double Check. It is also the Philosophy, though, of Most Psychologists as well. Behaviorism is the One Exception, for their Focus is Primarily on Behavior.
Hi Griper,
You are Right that Rewards and Punishments are a Part of Life. There is even a Verse that Says...
"7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9) And let us not be weary in well doing; for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."
It is Better, though, if the Rewards and Punishments come Naturally, rather than at the Hand of Another Person or as the Result of some Human Sociologist or Behaviorist. Remember, the Theme of this Post is not just the Manipulation of Behaviorism, but also the Fact that it is God who Actually Changes Human Hearts. We, as Humans, can not Change Anybody, nor can any of our Frail Human Ideas and Institutions.
You may have to Explain, Griper, what you Mean by "Acts of Determination", rather than Free Will. I Guess you Mean Acts that are Controlled by Another.
I Guess Another Way of Expressing what I Said Above is that Behaviorism and Government may Succeed at Times at Controlling Behavior, but Only God Can Have a Meaningful Affect on the Heart. When we do Succeed at Having a Meaningful Effect on Each Other, it is By the Love of God, not the Attempt to Manipulate and Control Each Other. That's what I'm Trying to Say.
Even I too Often Forget to Pray when I Blog. I Get Caught Up in a Political Spirit, rather than a Loving Spirit and In Spite of the Slow Nature of my Blog, I Still at Times do not Take as much Time as I Should to both Think and Pray. Blogs are too Fast Moving and Slowing Down and Forcing Time for Reflection and for God is Effort in this Setting.
Thanks for your Complement about my Pace, Z-Man. I Chuckle a Little, though, because I've been Feeling Inspired Lately in a Way that could Cause me to Pick Up the Pace, yet let's see how I Feel Led.
lista,
determination is a concept of acting without choice.
it is a secular term for predestination.
both are concepts in opposition to the concept of free will.
its one of those concepts that has to be either one or the other without compromise.
"yet I've Seen this Idea Carried so Far that the Person would not even Compromise his Preferences and Wants for the Sake of what Someone Else Prefers and Wants."
the first thing that has to be agreed on is whether or not values are at stake or is it just a matter of preference. and if there is no agreement, what then?
and as manofwonder would say, we now have a black or white situation again, don't we?
Hi Griper,
I'm Low on time, yet in this Case, that Might Actually be a Good Thing cause...Well, I Wonder if Someone Else Might have a Response to you. If anyone Else is Listening, I Invite that.
I think Griper means determinism, not determination. Calling it the secular version of predestination is good. I've never heard that before.
Actually, if determinism is true, there's no point debting--no point discussing--no poing talking to each other at all. Think about it.
Thanks Grath,
And I was actually more Interested in the Second of his Comments.
If there is enough Interest in the Subject, I Might Participate in a Debate on Determinism or Predestination, yet I Think I'll Wait on that Until Tomorrow. You are Right that it is sort of a Meaningless and Pointless Position to Take, especially in it's Extreme. That is the Total Absence of Free Will.
Well, I've Given my Readers Quite Awhile to Respond to Griper before I do so, so here is my Response.
Determinism is Similar, but not the Exactly the Same as Predestination. The Difference is that when God is in the Picture, Everything is Being Controlled by an Intelligent Source and not just by Empty Randomness.
Yes, Christians do Debate the Issue of Predestination vs. Choice, yet There is Another Concept that Comes into Play that is not Present in Relation to Determinism and that Other Concept is Foreknowledge. You see, just Because God Knows in Advance what Man is Going to Decide to do, this is not the Same as Causing it or Controlling it.
The Main Argument that is Used to Explain Why there is Pain in the World is Because God has Given Man Choice. Without the Problem of Free Choice, God Could Eliminate the Problem of Pain, yet He has Decided to Allow Choice and therefore, there is Pain, because we have the Choice to Mistreat Each Other.
The Whole Story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is About Choice and How they Made the Wrong Choice and thus, were Thrown Out of the Garden. God did not have to Offer them Choice, but He Did.
Ok, Enough of that Subject for Now.
What I was Hoping that Someone would Respond to, though, is to the Quote that Griper Quoted.
"yet I've Seen this Idea Carried so Far that the Person would not even Compromise his Preferences and Wants for the Sake of what Someone Else Prefers and Wants."
I'm a Little Surprised that No One Responded to Griper Other than a Brief Comment from P.J.Grath in Relation to Determinism. I've Waited Long Enough for Someone to Say Something Else, so here is the Rest of my Response to Griper.
As you Read his Second Comment from April 8, you will Notice that he did not Argue Against the Idea of Refusing to Compromise for the Sake of Preferences and Wants. Instead he Said that "This First Thing that Needs to be Agreed Upon..."
This Sounds as if he is Saying that I'm not Going to Compromise with you in Relation to your Wants until you Agree with me on Something else, or in other Words, I'm Going to Do Only What I Want and Prefer, not what you Want and Prefer Until we Agree on "whether or not values are at stake or is it just a matter of preference."
And then he said "and if there is no agreement, what then?" Exactly. What Then? Does that Mean that there can be no Compromise of Preferences and Wants, (This is also Called Sharing, as is Taught in Grade School.), if there is no Agreement about Whether or not Values are at Stake.
When I Think about what I have said so Far, Griper's Last Sentence doesn't Make any Sense.
Please, Someone, Explain this to me and I Prefer that it wasn't Griper. What I would Really Like is for Someone Else to say. I Know What he Means, or You are Right, Lista. His Comment is Confusing and I am Referring to the Second One that he Wrote on April 8, at 10:01 AM.
And, Griper, do me a Favor and Give them about 24 Hours to Answer, before you Respond.
While I'm at it, here is Something Else. Since "Determination", or Actually "Determinism", as Clarified by Angel, Means the Secular Version of Predestination, what does Griper Mean by...?
"so, a person needs to know the rewards and punishments that result from acts of free will as opposed to the rewards and punishments that are the result of acts of determination. how do you make this distinction clearly so as to ascertain when control is the ultimate end?" (Griper, April 7, 9:52 AM)
The Last Sentence/Question that he Asked is a Little Unclear since Determinism is a Philosophy Relating to Everything and yet his Question has to do with Control Being an End or Goal, rather than a Given. This is why I had Initially Guessed that his Meaning was Instead "Acts that are Controlled by Another."
As to Whether or not Determinism/Predestination vs. Free Will is Black and White, One Day I will to do a Post Relating to That, but that will Happen on another Day.
Having seen you post a comment on Angel's blog and having seen yours, I am adding it to my blog links. I suspect you have some valuable things to say. I certainly loved this particular treatise.
Kimbal aka radar
As to predestination and determininism, I agree that God's foreknowledge of what we will do is not a description of a puppeteer and puppets. We know we have free will to do as we decide and this has been available to man since the beginning when we chose to disobey God.
One problem is our comprehension of God. He is just and true, so it would be against His nature to force anyone to sin or force anyone to do right. He transcends time, so He doesn't merely navigate it but in fact it is not in any way a boundary to Him. God created time along with existence and information and life and etc.
We think of God being everywhere at once but actually closer to the truth would be that everywhere and everything at all times is one point of comprehension and understanding to the Mind of God. We tend to think of him as a big powerful superman but He is beyond our comprehension. Your goldfish understands you better than we can grasp onto God. We do the best we can by studying His Word and seeking to communicate with Him as He tells us...prayer is both speaking and listening.
Thanks Radar,
And Thanks for Dropping By. I Will Try and Remember to Post Things that are Spiritual Once in Awhile for the Sake of Folks like you.
Did you Read the Comments below the Next Post Up? I'm Working on a Little of a Summary of them so that the Conversation can Continue.
Oh Wow! There an Interest in the Subject of Predestination and I've been Meaning to do a Post on it, but I Keep Putting it Off. I Liked your Insights, Radar, though they may be a Little Deep for some on the Web.
I Believe in Limited Choice, for Our Choices are Limited by our Circumstances and also Genetic Abilities or Lack There of and this Limited Choice has Political Ramifications, for Without such Limits, Government Assistance Programs would not be Necessary, yet Because of these Limits to Free Choice, Assistance is sometimes Necessary and there in you have your Political Can of Worms.
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