Thursday, September 15, 2011

Black & White, Nature vs. Nurture Debate & Sigmund Freud

Well, I've gotten Side Tracked from my Swedenborg Series (the Next Two Posts Below).  I was going to do Three or Four Posts on him, but Only Ended Up doing two.  There may be more Later, yet for now, I'm Focused on Sigmund Freud and am Amazed to what Extent People who Write about these Historical Figures are Black and White in their Thinking.  For example, why do People Think that when it comes to Nature vs. Nurture, we have to Settle for one or the other and that it can't be a little of both.

This Post is sort of a Critique of an Article that I've read about Sigmund Freud.  Here is the Link to the Article that I'm now Responding to.  It covers all sorts of things relating to Sigmund Freud, yet if you Found this Post by way of a Web Search and are Primarily interested in the Nature vs. Nurture Debate, please feel Freed to Skip Down to the Part that contains the Heading "Black & White Thinking in the Article (Nature vs. Nurture)".  To Answer the Very First of your Questions, though, Freud's Focus was Very Strongly on Nurture.

The Author of said Article is Anti-Freud & Anti-Nurture.
I Wonder if it will Surprise the Friend who gave me this Link, to Realize that when I Read it all the way through to the End, what I mainly saw was Bias and Black and White Thinking.  I'm not even Particularly a Lover of Freud, yet I still Found the Final Conclusions in this Article to be Excessively Anti-Freud, or Actually more Specifically, Anti-Nurture in relation to the Nature vs. Nurture Debate.

The Positives Relating to Freud
In the First Part of the Article, a lot of Freud's Ideas are Explained and Only Some of them are Argued against.  For Example, the Article Admits that "Most People, including many who Reject other Elements of Freud's Work, Accept the Claim that Part of the Mind is Unconscious and that People Often Act for Reasons of which they are not Conscious."  The Article Actually calls Freud's Idea about the Unconscious "A Ground Breaking Idea".

The Article also says that the Idea that the Mind is not a Monolithic or Homogeneous thing Continues to have Enormous Influence on People Outside of Psychology.

Ok, so the Id, Ego & Super Ego has been Questioned and Rejected by some and Freud is Criticized for giving too much Importance to One or the other of these Factors, yet his Contributions to the Field of Psychology were Significant and can not be Discounted so Easily.

The Negatives
The Main Conflict has always been Relating to Freud's Over Emphasis on Sex as the Motivator of all Creative and Productive Behavior.  The Fact that Freud Expanded his Sexual Idea to Include all of our Creative Instincts and the Idea that Children are Sexual Beings has been Under Attack since the Very Beginning and his Idea of the Sexual Instinct and the Death Instinct has been Challenged as well.  Ideas such as the Oedipus conflict; Oral, Annal & Phallic Fixations, as well as Penis Envy (Another one that was not Mentioned in the Article) were all Controversial from the Start.  Freud was just Plain too Focused on Sex, to the Exclusion of other Social Motivators and I would Add Intellectual Motivators as well.  This Part of the Conflict is in No Way New.  These Ideas were Rejected by Most Psychologists a Really Long Time Ago.

It also doesn't Surprise me to Read that some Guy named Lydiard H. Horton Claimed that Freud's Dream Theory was "Dangerously Inaccurate".

Towards the end of the Linked Article, the Author was quite Negative, Making all Kinds of Generalized Negative Statements against Freud's Over All Theory, Research and Practice and "a Large Majority of Freud's Work".

Freud's Model and Theory of the Mind and his Basic Methods and Theories are Rejected by Some Clinical Psychologists and by Most Experimental Psychologists and Psychiatrists.  Many Clinical Psychologists, though, have Modified his Approach and Still Use it.

When the Article begins to talk about Freud's Psychological Theories being "Hotly Disputed Today", that he is Regarded as a Charlatan by some, that Psychiatry and Psychology has been "Recast as Scientific Disciplines", that his Influence is Lessening in Psychiatry and that his Theories have been Repudiated and Replaced by the Ideas of Emil Kaepelin, some of the Positives that were said earlier in the Article seem to have been Forgotten.

Back to the Positives
What about the "Ground Breaking" Idea about the Unconscious Mind and how it Influences Behavior; an Idea that Most People do still accept?  And What about the Idea that the Mind is not Homogenius or Monolithic?  And What about the Fact that Some Clinical Psychologists have Modified Freud's Approach and Developed a Variety of Models and Therapies that are Similar?  And What about the Fact that even many of those who have Rejected his "Model of the Mind" have still Adopted Elements of his Therapeutic Methods and that even the Use of "Talking as a Form of Therapy" is Accredited to Freud?  And What about the Fact that some People, even Today, still Seek Out Freud's method of Psychoanalysis as Part of a Process of Self-Discovery?  Also, What about his Research in Relation to Cerebral Palsy, in that he disagreed with William Little about the cause of it and that his Opinion is the One that was Confirmed by Research in the 1980s?  Yes, Freud was the One who Discovered that Birth Complications were a Symptom, not the Cause of Cerebral Palsy.

Ok, so Most of Psychiatrists and Psychologists Today Reject Traditional Freudian Psychoanalysis the way it was Originally done, yet what about all the Positives?  This Article Appears to be Throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water.  For Example, the Article Mentions how Experimental Psychologists and Psychiatrists Often Rely more on Drugs then on Talk in their Treatments and this is True, yet Considering all of the Negative Side Effects of these Drugs, the Total Emphasis on Drugs is way more Negative, than Positive.  Talking has never Stopped being a Good Idea, even to those Clinical Psychologists who have Rejected Freud's Model of the Mind.

Black & White Thinking in the Article (Nature vs. Nurture)
So what was it about this Article that I found to be inappropriately Black and White?  Well, the Statement "Freud's Notion that the Child's Relationship to the Parents is Responsible for Everything from Psychiatric Disorders to Criminal Behavior has also been Discredited." is Only True because of the Word Everything.  Never Mind, though, that the Suggestion that "Everything" is the Result of Genetics is just as Inaccurate.  Ok, so maybe we shouldn't always "Blame-the-Parents" for "Eveything", yet what I've Found to be Equally True is that Continually Blaming Oneself isn't Helpful either and also, to Suggest that Genetics and Biology Explains "Everything" and that there is no such thing as the Influence of Nurture is no more Accurate than the Opposite Extreme.

Just because there were many Decades, in which "Genetic and Biological Causes of Psychiatric Disorders were Dismissed without Scientific Investigation" does not Justify now Dismissing the Nurture Part of the Equation.

Yes, it is well established that Genetic and Biological Factors have a Great Influence on Human Development and Behavior and Sure, Psychiatric Disorders are Generally Considered Diseases of the Brain whose Etiology is Principally Genetic and many such Diseases have been Demonstrated to be Impervious to Psychoanalysis, yet none of that means that there is no such thing as Nurture.  Or that Nurture has no Influence what-so-ever.

To Use the Controversy Over the Excessive Sexual Focus of Sigmund Freud to Push the Idea of Genetic Influences, at the Exclusion of Equally Important Nurture Influences is Absurd.

The Only Reason that the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual" or the "American Psychiatric Association" Reflects the Neo-Kraelinian Scientific-Biological Approach to Psychiatric Disorders is because Psychiatry has always been the Biological and Nature Branch of PsychologyClinical Psychology is still alive and well, though, and is still Focused on Nurture, just as much as Psychiatry is on Nature and their Focus is on Talking, rather then Drugs.

It almost sounds as if the Author of the Linked Article is Holding some Kind of a Grudge because Biological and Genetic Etiologies were "Largely Ignored during the Earlier Freud-Dominated Decade of the Twentieth Century".

Anyway, though this Article Mentioned a Number of Positives at the Beginning, the Concluding thoughts were Excessively Negative and made it sound as if all of Freud's Ideas are Under Attack, rather then just a few of them, and that even Believing in Nurture and not just Nature is an Idea of the Past, but such a Suggestion is not at all True.

The Scientifically Observable & the Non-Scientifically Observable
One Last Black and White Thought is this one...

"Proponents of Science conclude that this Invalidates Freudian Theory and Proponents of Freud conclude that this Invalidates Science."  

Just because Freud Claimed that many of our Conscious Thoughts and Actions are Motivated by Unconscious Fears and Desires, this does not mean that this Invalidates Science.  Oh Come On!  Statements Like this sort of cause me to Shake my Head.  Why does it have to be One or the Other?  How does the Existence of Something that can not be Directly Observed and Studied Scientifically Invalidate that which can be Observed and Studied?  And how does that which can be Directly Observed and Studied Invalidate that which can not be?  Why is it so hard to Imagine that both the Observable and the Non-Observable are True Realities, that that which can be Studied Scientifically and that which can not be can both be Valid Realities and that both Nature and Nurture Exist and Interact with each Other and Why are some People so Very Very Blind to the Idea of NOT One of the Other, but Both?

I just don't get it.  Black and White Thinking is so Prevalent on the Web these days that I Wonder sometimes if True Reasoning has been Totally Lost.

20 comments:

BB-Idaho said...

In fairness to Freud, we need consider him in the context and frame of his times; of course genetics was in it's infancy;
DNA wouldn't be discovered for
80-90 years. I don't understand
"Yes, Freud was the One who Discovered that Birth Complications were a Symptom, not the Cause of Cerebral Palsy."
It is my understanding that birth
and pre-birth complications are
considered the cause..the symptoms are the effect and manifestation of that cause. (?) As with most
of our learning, concepts change;
expemplified by the long old battle of nature vs nurture (starting with the blank slate as against inherited traits. As the
folks that study the concept continue to learn, some will argue
black, others white-but there seems a growing concensus that both nurture and nature contribute
and some evidence there may be a
feedback loop between the two.
To some the concept devolves into free will vs determinism...but to me, well it all looks gray!

Satyavati devi dasi said...

You mentioned that clinical psychology doesn't emphasize drugs so much.

Probably because clinical psychologists aren't doctors and cannot prescribe them.

And yes, as you mentioned briefly, most psychiatric illnesses are biological. However, there is a significant role for therapies outside of the purely biological, such as behavior modification, and one especially effective modality called social rhythm therapy, which has been proven efficacious in bipolar disorder.

At the same time, generally the best way to deal with a chemical imbalance is to deal with the chemistry behind it.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

And thanks for the link :)

Lista said...

Wow!! I had no Idea that a Post like this one was going to get so much Response. I sort of Thought that it was going to be One of the Ones that Bombs and doesn't get much response and that I would soon be Moving on to something else, yet after Taking a Break Yesterday and not even so much as Looking at the Computer, Today I discover Three Responses to what I Posted on Thursday.

"Yes, Freud was the One who Discovered that Birth Complications were a Symptom, not the Cause of Cerebral Palsy."

Most of what I wrote in my Above Post was Taken Directly from the Linked Article, including this. Go back and Read it again for yourself. Apparently, he did not Get the Recognition that he Deserved for being Right about this One, as is Evidenced by the Fact that you and many Others Still Believe the Original Incorrect Conclusions of Willian Little.

In reality, Cause and Effect is Often Confused and more often then not, it is a Vicious Cycle in which the Cause begins the Effect and then the Effect Contributes to and further Aggravates the Cause and Round and Round it goes.

And Yes, "the Blank Slate" is the Other Extreme. To Understand this in a Balanced Way, a Person has to Realize that the "Slate" is Neither Blank, nor Full. There are Genetic Tendencies, yet they are not enough to Completely Fill the Slate so that Environmental Influences can not also Play a Part. And yes, there is also Free Choice, which Complicates things all that much more.

Satyavati,
"You mentioned that clinical psychology doesn't emphasize drugs so much. Probably because clinical psychologists aren't doctors and cannot prescribe them."

Another Way of Putting that is that Clinical Psychologists do not Study Medicine because that is not their Primary Focus. It is good, though, when both of these Fields can Work Together.

Your Comments are Quite Balanced, Satyavati, so I have no Disagreements with anything that you have said.

And You're Welcome for the Link. Any Time and Thanks for your Comment.

Perhaps I should add that Many Psychosomatic Diseases have Significant Psychological, as well as Environmental Components to them. An Ulcer, for Example, though there is a Definite Biological Situation going on that will Require Time for Healing in spite the Removal to all Stress, even so, Stress Aggravates it. The Ulcer itself is Biological, but the Stress is Environmental and one's ability to Handle Stress is an Internal Factor that has to do with both Environmental Influences and also Free Choice.

It has been Argued that all Diseases are Psychosomatic to one degree or another.

cwhiatt said...

" I just don't get it. Black and White Thinking is so Prevalent on the Web that I Wonder if True Reasoning has been Totally Lost."

Are you sure you don't mean that you wonder if rationalizing hasn't been lost?

Reasoning requires black and white thinking (as you describe it) because the black and white aspect represents absolutes or concretes. In a black and white scenario you either accept that theft; that is stealing, is wrong or not. If instead you abandon those two axioms and in exchange attempt to frame your argument by stating something such as "well so and so was starving and had x number of children to feed or the item which was stolen was only a few dollars" then you are futily attempting to rationalize your behavior or belief.

Lista said...

She Chuckles a Little at the Mention of Rationalizing.

Trust me, Soap. Rationalizing is Live and Well. I Come Across it Regularly.

Black and White Thinking is Limited Reasoning, for it Limits the Available Options, in that it Allows Only for the Two Extremes and not for that which is in the Middle.

Just as I got through Telling you on Satyavati's Blog, Soap, "All that Extremism Means when I say it is Far from the Center.", so Please don't go Taking Offense to the Word, like you Often do.

Limited Reasoning, Leads to Limited Truth. The Full Truth Includes all the Options, not just those at the Two Extremes. Lots of Truth is Gray, not Black and White.

Another Way of Saying that is that the World is not just Made of the Primary Colors, Red, Blue, Yellow, Black and White. The World Also Contains Various Different Shades of Purple, Green, Orange and Yes, Also Gray. That is, that which is in the Middle, between the Primary Colors.

Perhaps it will Surprise you to Hear me say that not Everything is Absolute. There are Things that Depend on the Individual or on the Situation.

Here's the Problem...There are Definite Absolutes and therefore, anyone who Says that "There are no Absolutes." is not Expressing Truth, yet just because there are Definite Absolutes, does not Mean that there is no such Thing as that which is Relative.

If you Drop Something here on Earth, it will Absolutely Fall to the Ground, yet there are Exceptions. Certain Things when Dropped on Water, will Float, rather then Fall, or Sink to the "Ground", at the Bottom. Also, Things Fall on Earth, but not in Space. So you see, there are Exceptions, even to the Law of Gravity.

My Favorite Way of Explaining what is Relative is by Describing a Phone Call between two People on Opposite Sides of the Earth. One Insists that the Sun is Setting and the Other Insists that No, it's Rising. Both are Right, yet the Only Absolute is that the World Spins and Rotates Around the Sun. The Rising and Setting is also True, but it is Relative, not Absolute.

Just because the Statement that there are indeed Absolutes, this does not Mean that there are no Relatives. Black and White Thinking is Limited, Soap, and Results in a Limited View of the World.

Lista said...

Yes, Soap, Stealing is Wrong and God is Both Just and Holy. In God's Holiness, He can not Tolerate Sin, yet Man is Imperfect and can not Live Up to God's Standards. No One Can Truly Live Up to the Absolutes that are Required by God's Holiness and this is the Reason for Grace.

Many may not Realize this, yet Grace is a Compromise. Yes, that's Right. God Compromised.

He Offered Forgiveness when His Holiness Required Perfection. Since Perfection is not really Possible, God sent his Son on the Cross to Provide us a Way to Reach Him, in spite our Imperfection. Perfection is an Absolute, but Absolutes are not Obtainable because of Imperfection and this is Why God Entered into our Imperfect World of Gray, in Order to Bring us a Way back to Fellowship with Him.

Absolutes are worth Striving for, yet this Quest is a Journey. That which is Fully Absolute and Perfect is not Actually Obtainable in this Imperfection World and this is Why both Seeing and Expecting Only Absolutes is Unrealistic.

I Assure you Absolutely, that the Father who Stole for the Sake of his Hungry Family will be Forgiven by God and, in fact, Sins of much Greater Degree then this will also be Forgiven.

I guess it could be said that Jesus Died on the Cross to Free us from Sin, as well as from the Legalism of Absolutes. We Strive for Perfection and for the Absolutes, yet what we Actually Achieve is always going to Fall Short.

It is not my Belief that someone who Falls Short of Perfection in a World of Pure Unassisted and Unregulated Capitalism should Pay for that Lack with Starvation.

You Know What? Thanks for your Comment, Soap. I was Beginning to Wonder what some of my More Political Followers were Thinking and now I Know.

BB-Idaho said...

B/W thinking is fine for simple logic/math. "It is important to remember that human beings are just too complex to be reduced to dichotomous judgements, and that all qualities fall somewhere along a continuum, containing elements of either extreme." I know a pair
of combat veterans, one a neocon
who would nuke any country that
won't 'heel'...the other a pacifist. I have no idea of what
led them from military warriers to
their present stances, but according to B/W one is correct, the other not. Perhaps we all have
a bit of tunnel vision? Maybe we
inately use fuzzy logic ,for
example the old half-full glass
perception. So at the fishing hole,
the pessimist declares he will catch nothing, the optimist is sure
he will catch something, and the
fuzzy logic fellow observes he
MAY or MAY NOT catch something....

Lista said...

Thanks for your Comment, BB, it is Very Good as Usual. I wonder if I should Remind you, though, that in a Black and White World, there is no such Thing as a Half-Full Glass. Didn't you Know that the Glass is either Full or Empty and there is no in between?

I don't know what Black and White Thinkers do when they see a Half Filled Glass. Ignore it and Pretend it's not there, I guess.

It's Funny, too, that the Example you Described as "Foggy Logic" is Actually the Most realistic and Correct of the three Perspectives that you Stated.

Lista said...

Oophs! I Mean "Fuzzy Logic".

Lista said...

I Guess I should Relate this to the Post Again. The Belief that Nature is all that Exists is One Black and White Extreme and the Belief that Nurture is all that Exists is the Other Black and White Extreme. The Belief that both Nature and Nurture Exist and Interact with each other is the Balance In between and is the One that most Accurately Describes Reality.

radar said...

I recently posted a study on the activity of the brain. Recent research has revealed that synapses fire all over the brain while all sorts of thoughts and actions are considered and done. There is no simple sectioning of reasoning in one area and instinct in another. The entire brain seems to be interactive.

This leads me to believe that probably in normal humans all memories, even from the womb, are archived and can be accessed without being consciously considered. If so, then we are the sum of all of our memories and teachings and decisions and some echoes of all of them are in the background when we consciously think on the next action.

But life is more than biology. You cannot just define life as electrical impulses. I believe God creates a life and assigns it to a human upon conception. That may be a religious idea but it comes from the Psalms. Some of us are gifted with talents we can see came from one or both parents, but also many times a child has capabilities no relative is known to have. So I will also assert that God does, as He says, give gifts "severally as He will" to men.

The wonder of mankind is not just 100 trillion cells and ten microorganisms per cell, making us walking planets. The wonder is our ability to think abstractly and make value judgments not depending entirely upon bodily urges. Our ability to sense the God who created us is inherent as well. How restless are those who fight against that inbred knowing?

Black and white as a matter of basic wrong and right? I agree. I accept God as the rightful declarer of right and wrong. Beyond His direct commands we have an ability to reason. We should not waste that ability just accepting what we are told, but rather think critically!!!

Lista said...

This is another Very Good Comment, Radar. Thanks Again.

BB-Idaho said...

Memory is a curious phenomenon. The
woman who remembers everything
has been studied by neurophysiologists, and while she
can recall everything that happened to HER, she has forgotten
outside events of her past, as well as stuff she learned in school. I remember faces, but not names, trivial bits of ancient
history, but not passwords and
potassium dinitrobenzofuroxan, but
not Zocor.
IMO, one of the processes of dreaming is the restructuring of
biophysical pathways along the
brain neurons...elimination of
'junk' info..so that the mind is
free of bogging down with every
bit of information ever received...
and is free to receive new info.
Am I out to lunch?

Lista said...

No, you are not Out to Lunch, BB, but I may be. We have Out of Town Company Coming Again, so Once Again, I am Distracted.

cwhiatt said...

"If you Drop Something here on Earth, it will Absolutely Fall to the Ground, yet there are Exceptions. Certain Things when Dropped on Water, will Float, rather then Fall, or Sink to the "Ground", at the Bottom. Also, Things Fall on Earth, but not in Space. So you see, there are Exceptions, even to the Law of Gravity."

Oh Lista....

That's quite a hatchet job you've done there (taking logic and turning it on its head)

Whether something floats on water is irrelevant to the law of gravity. The items still fall to earth. Water is a part of the earth. The law of gravity is absolute. Can it be defied? Yes but that doesn't imply that gravity only affects certain things. It means another force or forces need to be in action. And why?? Because the law of gravity is absolute.

What you've done (and you do it ALL THE TIME) is to take one subject matter (in this case gravity) and interject a wholly separate matter (in this case whether items float on water).

This is an extremely bizarre thinking process you have here on display.

Lista said...

Our Out of Town Company will be Coming Tomorrow, so I'm going to be Highly Distracted and will not have Time to Argue this Issue much. I hope to Find a Minute to Respond to this Later Today, but I'm not Making any Promises.

cwhiatt said...

Save your breath. You can't argue against the laws of gravity. Oh you'll try I'm sure but you'd probably be better off spending the time wiping down the counter and scrubbing the tub before your company arrives.

Lista said...

Oh for Pete's Sake, Soap. You are Attacking me when you Know that I will not have the Time to Defend myself. That is Really Slick.

There is no Argument in your Last Comment; only an Insult. I Chose to Wipe Down the Counter and Scrub the Toilet because it was the Right Priority, not because I don't have an Argument to Offer.

Here is my Response to the First of your September 30 Comments...

To Make a Law Absolute, a Person has to Use Precise Language and Sometimes Add Conditions. For Example, the Statement that "Because of Gravity, all Objects will Fall to 'the Ground'" is not an Absolute, because there are Things, such as Water that will Prevent some Objects from Reaching "the Ground". If we use the Word, "Earth", that may Take Care of the Exception that I Mentioned, yet that is not the Only One.

Objects also do not Fall to Earth if they are Out in Space. So we now have to Say that Objects will Fall to "a Planet" Only if they are Close Enough. So you see, we have to Keep Changing the Words we Use and Adding New Conditions in Order to Preserve the Statement as an Absolute.

When our Knowledge was more Limited, we Knew Absolutely Nothing about Outer Space and the Fact that there is no Gravity there and therefore thought that the Statement that "All Objects" will Fall to "the Earth" when Dropped was an Absolute, but it is not.

No Matter how much we Learn, our Knowledge will Still always be Limited, because we are Finite Beings with Limited Knowledge. We can Only Guess what some of the Exceptions are to that which we believe to be Absolute.

Lack of Knowledge is actually what the Problem is. Consider, for Example, if someone Knew about Gravity, but not about Water. In this case, the Person would Wonder why the Object doesn't Continue to "Fall" when it Hits Water. Sure the Explanation is the Interjection of another Force and it could be said that a lot of "Exceptions" can be Explained that way.

I Hope that the Word "Exception" does not Lead us into another Discussion about Word Technicalities. By Exception, I mean an Exception to an "Absolute" as Stated. For Example, In Relation to Gravity, if the Word "Ground" is Used, rather then "Earth", then there is an Exception to the Statement.

The Real Problem, though, comes when we Apply "Absolutes", as we Understand them, to ALL People. For Example, "Anyone who Puts forth Effort can find and do a job that Pays enough for them to, without Assistance, make enough Money to Buy that which they Need, in Order to Survive. That is Things such as Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medicine and/or Adequate Health Insurance, plus all that the Government Currently Provides; Police and Fire Protection, etc., etc., etc."

Due to the Presence of Genetics (Nature), though, or for that matter, also Nurture, some People may not be as Smart, Gifted or Emotionally Stable as yourself. There are other Forces at Play besides Effort and Free Choice. Genetics, Disease, Emotional Trauma, etc., etc., all Play a Part in Causing Exceptions to the Above Statement as Stated and that is why the Bible Commands People to Give to the Poor.

For anyone who is reading this that does not Know, Soapster is a Libertarian who believes in Practically no Government.

I am Wanting to do another Post about the Political Implications of the Nature/Nurture/Free Choice Debate, as well as some of Freud's other Ideas, yet since we have Out of Town Company Coming, it will be a Couple Weeks or more before I get to doing that.

Lista said...

For the Sake of my Followers who are Christian, I Better Add that I do Know that as Christians, we do Believe in Absolutes, yet to say that there are no Relatives is just as Incorrect as to say that there are not Absolutes, for there are both Absolutes and Relatives. All I am Suggesting is that we do not Add to the Bible Additional Absolutes that are not there.