Wednesday, February 1, 2012

MoreThoughts on Republican Primary Candidates/2012

As to the Election, I am now Leaning towards Newt Ginrich and in a Minute I will explain why.

I had Initially Started this Post on the Day of the South Carolina Primaries, January 21, and I didn't even Know the Results yet.  We had just recently discovered that Santorum Won Iowa, not Romney, giving One Win to Santorum (Iowa) and One to Romney (New Hampsire).  For the Remainder of this Post, when I say Update, I am Referring to the Date of this Post and when I say Earlier, I am Referring to January 21, when I First Wrote this Post.

Update: Now we Know that Gingrich has Won South Carolina and Romney has Won Florida.  Santorum and Gingrich have both Won One State and Romeny has Won Two.

Earlier: My Opinion at the Time of the South Carolina Election was that Romney had been coming Across as a little Arrogant and to be Honest with you, I still get that Impression at Times.  He's just a little too Confident that he is going to Win and well, at the Time of the Carolina Election, he wouldn't Release his Tax Reforms.  Ron Paul may be a little Embarrassed because he makes less then the others, yet Romney is Embarrassed about something too, yet we do not Know what.

Update: Did we ever Find Out what Romney was so Embarrassed about?  It seems to me that there was nothing all that Surprising about his Tax Reforms once he Finally did decide to Release them.  I guess he is just Afraid that People will Judge him because he Makes so much Money.

Earlier: Both Santorum and Gingrich Appear to have more Heart.  Romney Appears to have more Money.

In Actuality, Gingrich's willingness to be a little Softer on Illegals that have been here 25 Years and have Roots in the Community makes sense and Romney's Approach does come across as a little Heartless.

Update: It Seems to me that there was a more Recent Debate in which Romney Defended himself a little better and did not come Across as quite so Heartless in Relation to Illegals.  I Laughed when he said that the Issue is not "11 Million Grandmothers" and he Assured as that he is not Going to be Going Around Ripping Grandmothers out of their Homes.

Earlier: Ok.  So Newt has had some Marital Problems and has even had Affairs as a Result.  He has Married his "Mistress", so it wasn't just a Casual Thing done just for Thrills.

I Know it's hard for a lot of Hard Core Christians to Understand, but you know what?  Sometimes these Things just Happen.  I can Forgive him for that.

For some Reason, they Keep Referring to Newt as "the other Conservative Option" and to Romney as the One who is more Liberal, even though both of these Guys have been Criticized for ways in which they are not as Conservative as some would like them to be.

And what about Rick Santorum?  Well, though I Agree with his Strong Pro-life Stand, it may be too Strong for most of the Liberals, a lot of the Independents and perhaps even some of the Conservatives.  I'm Afraid that might make him Unelectable.

Michael Buckman has also said something about him During the Iowa Election Period that Unfortunately Stuck with me, for she Claims that he has a Spending Problem and I guess this is Based on him Voting a Few Times for them to Raise the Debt Ceiling.  I Never did hear his Defense in Relation to this One.

And Ron Paul, well I'm afraid that both he and Santorum are Unelectable in the General Election.  Ron Paul, though, has the Added Problem of being a little on the Radical Side on some of his Positions.

Yeh.  I Think I'm going to go with Newt.  For now that's my Decision.

Update: My Opinions have not Really Changed much after Watching the Debates Leading up to the Primary in Florida.  I Wish that I had heard the Speeches that were given on that Night.  I Missed them this Time.  Oh well.


soapster said...

"And Ron Paul, well I'm afraid that both he and Santorum are Unelectable in the General Election."

And you've arrived at this conclusion how? Gut feeling?

Lista said...

I Use Logic when I come to Conclusions, Soap, yet my Experience with you has shown me that you do not Understand my Logic because most of your Ideas are just Plain Locked in Stone.

It's not Worth the Risk to Vote for someone who may not be Electable in the General Election. If I was willing to Take a Risk, though, Soap, I would be just as Likely to Vote for Santorum, as for Ron Paul, for Reasons that I already Know you will not Agree with, so it is not Worth Discussing it with you.

I must Admit, though, that it Frustrates me that the Media has already Decided that Romney is going to be the Nominee. That alone Annoys me enough to Persuade me to Vote Against him.

It Frustrates me that Money is what Wins Elections. Why don't People Study the Issues and the Candidates and Ignore the Adds? And Yes, I will most definitely be doing so before I Vote. California Votes in June.

soapster said...

Since you failed to answer a simple question I'll ask you again.

Surely you know that logic is based on deductive reasoning.

So explain your logic then.

Explain very simply if you can what facts and information have you deduced to conclude at this particular infantile stage in the primary season that neither Ron Paul or Santorum are electable in the general election?

In reaching that conclusion, has the information you've deduced to reach said conclusion included any of the following facts:

Ron Paul is receiving more support from Independents and Democrats defecting to him than any of the other GOP candidates.

We've only had primaries/caucuses in 4 out of 50 states.

For one of the 4 states, national delegates have not been selected.

The next 4 states in the GOP primary/caucus schedule will also not result in any immediate national delegates.

Ron Paul has faired as well or better than Romney when matched up in a number of polls against President Obama in a general election.

Lista said...

"Since you failed to answer a simple question I'll ask you again."

When I am Continually Pestered on my Blog by someone who has Very Different Views than myself and who I Know that I can not Persuade of anything, I am in no Way Obligated to Spend my Precious Time Answering every Question that you Decide to Annoy me with.

Ron Paul is too Radical for me Personally, Soap, so it doesn't Matter rather or not he Can Win. As to Santorum, well the Percentage of People in this Country who do not Believe that a Rape Victim should be Deprived of an Abortion is High enough that it is Completely Logical to Conclude that this Position will Cost Santorum a Considerable Number of Votes.

And then there are the Polls. If you decide to not Believe in Polls, Soap, that is your Prerogative, but it is not at all Illogical to Observe how, though not Perfect, Polls are also not Entirely Off and there are lots of Polls that Keep Pointing to Romney and Occasionally Gingrich.

Now, I do Know that it is Important to Continually Remember the Bias of the Media. It is Unfortunate that they have as much Control as they do Over Public Opinion, yet Unfortunately that is a Reality that we are not Able to get Free of.

I Guess it's Ok that you have Said your Piece on my Blog, Soap. It just Frustrates me that too Often yours is the Only Opinion that I hear on my Blog. So many of my Followers do not Comment and you Take up Enough of my Time that I do not have as much Time to Visit a few Other Blogs as Often as I would Like to.

BB-Idaho said...

It appears that Romney has big
financial backing, which no doubt
helps his campaign. Now, the Trump endorsement...I have no
idea what that does.

Lista said...

Like I said, it annoys me considerably that the Media has already Decided that Romney is going to win. The Last thing that he Needs now is someone's Endorsement.

And BTW, Soap, if you are Aware of a Poll that says that Ron Paul can Win against Obama, could you give me a Link, Please.

The Internet Polls are Biased, you know. They are Based on the Biased Sample of People who come by the Web Site that Contains the Poll. There is no Way to get an Unbiased Sample that way. Quite Often More Radical and Less Popular Candidates do very well in Internet Polls and I'm Guessing that this is because the Political part of the Web is filled with a large number of Radical People.

Lista said...

You Know Soap,
Even Ron Paul, himself, doesn't Act as if he Expects to Win. His Goal is just to Grow the Movement, by Collecting as many Delegates from the Caucus States as Possible.

In Relation to Gingrich and Romney, what the Media has been Saying is that since Gingrich has Limited Funds, there are no Debates for awhile and quite a few of the States that are Next in Line to Hold their Caucuses and Primaries have Large Mormon Populations, things do not Look Good for Gingrich right now. If he Looses Momentum, he will not get the Necessary Campaign Contributions to Carry him through the Rest of the Race.

This is all Based on Logical Conclusions, so even what the Media says is not entirely without Logic.

"Since you failed to answer a simple question, I'll ask you again."

Insulting as Usual; Whenever something is called "Simple", Soap, those who "Fail" to Comply with the Implied Expectation are Labeled as either Lazy or Stupid. In truth, though, no one is Required to Meet any Expectation, no Matter how "Simple", and for a situation to Truly be one of Freedom, we should not have to Endure Insult for any Expectation that we Decide not give our Top Priority to.

Yes, BB, it Frustrates me Considerably that there is such a Large Financial Side to Winning. It should be Based on the Issues, not on the Amount of Money that a Person can Spend on a Campaign.

soapster said...

soapster said...

Also, if Ron Paul can amass enough delegates to prohibit Romney from getting the 1144 delegates he needs before the RNC in Tampa, it's gonna be a whole new ballgame.

Lista said...

"Also, if Ron Paul can amass enough delegates to prohibit Romney from getting the 1144 delegates he needs before the RNC in Tampa, it's gonna be a whole new ballgame."

Huh? Interesting Strategy. And What Happens then, since none of the Candidates will have enough Delegates?

My Guess is that they might Nominate him anyway, yet One Thing that that would Accomplish is that it would send a Message to Romney and to the Arrogant Media that his Ideas are not as Popular as he and they would like them to be and that he had Better Respect the Opinions of the Republicans that did not Vote for him.

soapster said...

"And What Happens then, since none of the Candidates will have enough Delegates?"

The delegates become unbound after the first round of voting and can switch there support to whomever. If Romney can't walk into Tampa with 1144 delegates, it'd be foolish to think the delegation who has fought for a brokered convention would simply roll over and give it to Romney.

BB-Idaho said...

It seems that in the primaries,
candidates play to their 'base',
then in the general election, move to the middle; the idea being to
lure more that just the 'base'.
Ron Paul hasn't done that, and I doubt he will: he has sort of
a mixed base, and very loyal.
IMO, Romney is playing cutsie-pie,
just enough far right to satisfy
that group, while throwing out
more moderate clues. I sure woudn't go so far as to blame the
'arrogant' media: they report news,
and some stations offer opinion
pieces and even panels. We should not confuse news with opinion....

Lista said...

It is my Opinion that if the Delegates are given in a Way that goes against the Will of the Public, that there will be a Huge Public Out Cry. Public Opinion is Actually a rather Powerful thing and when Politicians Defy it, there is all Kinds of Chaos.

"We should not confuse news with opinion...."

Liberals do Generally Deny the Liberal Slant of the Media, yet that does not Change what is so.

soapster said...

The delegates are not bound to the will of the people at large Lista. If you understand at all how our political process works in this country then you ought to understand that ANYONE who meets the requirements can get involved and participate in the political process.

I am a delegate to the BPOU convention. I support Ron Paul. I had the support of my precinct. I don't owe it to anyone else in my precint or senate district to suddenly start supporting Santorum or someone else.

I made the effort to get involved in the state party for a specific purpose. I attended countless meetings, made countless phone calls, organized and donated time and money, etc.

Anyone else could have done the same thing. But, because they didn't, to infer that somehow I or any other delegate has some sort of fiduciary obligation to the "will of the people" is not quite right.

soapster said...

To clarify, Minnesota's delegate selection process is wholly different than that of a primary.

In a winner take all primary, the delegates are bound to the winner of the straw poll.

That's not how we do it in MN.

Further, those delegates are only bound for the first round of voting. If a candidate doesn't receive the 1144 needed in the first round of voting, those previously bound delegates become unbound and can switch to another candidate.

Lista said...

I do not Agree with the Winner Take All Process. This Disenfranchises 49% of the Votes and Often more. For Example, in the Florida Primary, Romney Won with 46.4% of the Vote, which in a sense Disenfranchises 53.6% of the Voters.

Santorum 13.3%

I can see, though, how a Delegate from a Winner Take All State could Vote Differently if 1144 Delegates are not Awarded to anyone in the First Round of Voting. Perhaps some of them would Side with the Disenfranchised Voters, instead of with the One Who Actually Won in their State. I do Believe in the Will of the People, though, and that Delegates should not go against them in too Dramatic of a Way.

Lista said...

Here's a Question for you. If the Votes of the People do not Matter, then why was it Necessary to Make all of Those Phone Calls and why is is Necessary to Campaign in Order to Appeal to the Public?

soapster said...

"If the Votes of the People do not Matter, then why was it Necessary to Make all of Those Phone Calls and why is is Necessary to Campaign in Order to Appeal to the Public?"

Because that is the only way you will locate and identify the individuals whose votes and support DO matter.

BB-Idaho said...

"I do not Agree with the Winner Take All Process. This Disenfranchises 49% of the Votes and Often more. For Example, in the Florida Primary, Romney Won with 46.4% of the Vote, which in a sense Disenfranchises 53.6% of the Voters." The winner take all is fairly common-that's how the electoral college works. In
the 2000 election, Gore had 48.38%
of votes, Bush had 47.87%: either
way about half the voters would be
'disenfranchised'. In Florida, they
were tied 49%-49%, with an amount
of ballots thrown out. This led to
controversy, so the SCOTUS elected
Bush. 5 judges won and everyone else was 'disenfranchised'. Just the way it works sometimes.

soapster said...

And here's a question for you (You being a Christian and all): What does your church or your faith say about supporting a man for president who advocates for the assassination of people from other countries?

Lista said...

I am Aware of the Electoral College, BB, and have Never Agreed with it. IMO, the States who have Decided to Pass Out their Delegates Proportionally, instead, have made an Improvement on the Original Winner Take All Electoral College System.

I've become even more Annoyed with the Winner Take All Idea in Large States after we Moved to Northern California, at which time, I realized that it is not just Individuals that are being Out Voted by Other Individuals, but Entire Counties, as well as Larger Rural Areas of the State, are Being Out Voted by those in the Cities.

Add to this the Frustrating Reality that those in the North have been Calling themselves "the North State" for Years and yet we Continue to be Part of this Horribly Liberal State and there does not Appear to be anything that can be done about it and yes, California is a Winner Take All State, that Pretty much gives its Delegates to Democrats most of the Time. It's Frustrating and Makes a Person Wonder why we even Bother to Vote at all.

In the Linked Video, Soap, Gingrich is Talking about War and in War, People get Killed.

soapster said...

Uh no. He is talking about assassinating Iranian scientists. Is your God and awesome God or what?

soapster said...

"In the Linked Video, Soap, Gingrich is Talking about War and in War, People get Killed."

You didn't answer the question Lista.

What kind of Christian (a pro-life one at that) excuses the suggestion that we should, as a matter of foreign policy, assassinate people?

Lista said...

Whether Gingrich Calls this War or not is Irrelevant, when the Government of One Country Assassinates someone in another Country, this is an Act of War. And Anyway, I do not have to Agree with a Person on Every Single Thing in order to Vote for him. There is no such thing as a Candidate that I Agree with on Everything.

Lista said...

As to the Pro-Life Thing, in Relation to Abortion, that is an Issue that has to do with the Protection of the Lives of the Innocent. Issues, such as the Death Penalty and also Killing that is Related to War, are Separate Issues. Babies are Innocent. Criminals are not and Neither are those who Build Nuclear Weapons with the Intent of Wiping Israel Off the Map.

soapster said...

"Neither are those who Build Nuclear Weapons with the Intent of Wiping Israel Off the Map."

'You must unlearn what you have learned. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...' - Yoda

Unlearn the propaganda which floods into your ears and seeps into your mind Lista.

Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made.

Educate yourself here:

Dave Miller said...

Soap, what you and others have failed to do is give a possible path to the nomination for Mr. Paul. However good and consistent people may think he is, he is not going to be getting the GOP nomination. It is that simple.

That fact, independent of the hopes and wild imaginations of his followers, is why no serious political follower gives him a chance.

He will not get the 1100 needed before Tampa, and he won't be winning a contested convention either. He simply does not have the support necessary from the party bosses.

radar said...

Well said, Lista! Those same folks who cry about the concept of killing off the men who murder innocents as a matter of course, like the Islamic Terrorists, seem perfectly happy to see women murdering their babies before the actual birth event.

Geopolitical action is based on the protection of your own people. What man wouldn't shoot a guy who breaks into his house with a butcher knife or a handgun theatening his family? What if your neighbor began to put logs and pour gasoline along the side of your house. Would you let him light the house on fire before you stopped him? No! So nations must protect their own people and interests and we need to protect the innocent!

soapster said...

Perhaps I've not made myself very clear Dave.

As a Ron Paul supporter for 10 years, I think I speak for a great many of us when I say that it honestly doesn't matter if he wins Dave.

"An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government."

For those of us who envision a future where there are no coercive nation states and what governance that remains is local, decentralized and voluntary, our network of small groups is both our secret weapon to achieve our ultimate goal, as well as the way we daily practice the lifestyle all humanity will ultimately follow. If there is to be civilization in the future, it will be patterned around networks of small voluntary groups of individuals. This is what we believe and hope for, and therefore this is how we live.

Lista said...

You Know, Soap, you are continually Misunderstanding the Reason why I Blog. I am not Here in Order to Listen to Relentless Suggestions about the Fact that I Need to Learn this and Learn that. If some of the Things that I've both Heard and Believe are Incorrect, then the Misconceptions are Wide Spread. Not Everyone has the Time to Research every Little Thing that the People around them are questioning.

You see, what you Want, Soap, is for me to Unlearn what you Consider "Propaganda" and to Relearn your Version of the Truth.

I Decided some time Ago that you are someone who is not really Worthy of my Time and the Reason Why is because I Find you to be Far more Preachy than Helpful.

I have other Commenters and just don't have the Time to Focus such a Large Amount of Energy all the Time on You.

Thanks Dave,
Sorry that I've been away from my Blog for so Long. People like Soap Tire me so much that I lose Interest in Blogging.

Thanks Radar,
What you've said is quite "Well Said" as well. What you Said Makes Sound Sense and what Soap Says is Continuous Nonsense. What Makes Sound Sense does not Make Sense to Soap and what does not Make Sense is what he Keeps Repeating Relentlessly. His Questions are so Foolish that they are Tiring.

He Talks to me in a Condescending Manner Continuously, as if he Believes me to be a Total Idiot and then Wonders why I sometimes do not Bother to Read the Links that he Refers me to.

Thanks so much for Dropping By, Radar. I wish that I could Blog more Often so that there would be more for People Like you to Read and Respond to. Unfortunately, too Often, there are Only a Hand Full of Regulars and some of those who Drop by Often do not Appear to Like me very Well. It's Interesting how many Bloggers are more Interested in Finding an Enemy to Insult, than a Friend that they can Encourage.

Finding One's Way Away from Anger, Hate and Conflict and Moving Back in the Direction of Compassion, Love, Understanding and the Desire to be Helpful is a Very Hard Thing for some People. Perhaps this is something that can not be Accomplished so Easily without God.

I Pray that God will Heal the Hearts of those who Thrive on Political Conflict and Help them to Realize that there is a Better Way of Existence that Involves Love, as well as the God of Love.

Someone Told me not so Long ago, that I should never Feed the Trolls. The Problem is that the Basic Etiquette on the Blogs is that Freedom of Speech is Valued above all Else and in Order to Offer such Freedom of Speech, it is Hard to Figure Out How to Prevent the Trolls from Dominating our Blogs, especially when they are the Only Ones Talking.

Too Often, Trolls can Take the Joy Out of Blogging.

Getting Back to the Subject, though, I Honestly don't Care that Much who Wins this Nomination. Only that Obama is Defeated.

Lista said...

Back to Soap,
It is Good to Make a Stand, Soap, and to Run a Campaign based on an Idea, even in the Absence of the Possibility of Winning an Election, yet if the Numbers of Votes for such a Candidate is such that it Prevents the Electable from getting the Nomination, then this is not a good Thing.

Sometimes the Long Term Goals relating to the Spread of Ideas is not as Important as the Short Term Emergencies, such as what is Occurring now with the Obama Presidency. He Needs to be Stopped, Soap. 4 more Years of his Rule could be Detrimental to our Country.

This is Why, though I very Much Like both Newt Gingrich and Santorum, I still may Vote for Romney, for I still Think that there are more Democrats that will be Willing to Vote for him than for any of the Others.

Yeh, Yeh, I Know. Romney Care is Similar to Obama Care. It's not the Same, though. Obama Care is Much Much Worse. There are all Kinds of Hidden things Added to it that were Never in Romney Care and In Fact, have absolutely nothing to do with Health Care. Besides, Romney Believes that Health Care is a State Issue, not a Federal One and Romney Care was a State Program, not a National One.

"as well as the way we daily practice the lifestyle all humanity will ultimately follow."

This is a Nice Dream, Soap, but that is all that it is. The Reality is that when it comes to Ideas that are Far from Center, there is Only so Far that your Opponents will be willing to come before they will Stop in their Tracks and not give another Inch in your Direction. Independents and Moderates (the Actual Deciding Votes in all Elections) can be Swayed to Move a little to the Right or Left, but will Never Give you everything that you are Hoping for.

That's the Reality, Soap. This Horrible Compromise thing that you Hate is the Reality and all else is a Selfish Dream or Unrealistic Hope for a Utopia that can never be Realized.

Lista said...

I will not Post Cuss Words, Soap. I'm Sorry I Made you Angry.

You are not Preachy because you Post Links. You are Preachy because you Talk to me in a Condescending Manner.

This is How it Works, Soap. Those who are Far From the Center Try to Persuade Moderates to Accept their Point of View, yet such Persuasion Involves more than just information. It Involves a certain Politeness that you do not Possess. That's Reality, Soap, and for you to Keep Preaching about the Responsibility of Individuals to do their Own Research is not going to Change this Reality.

Lista said...

I need to do another post and perhaps I'll find the time to do it some time tomorrow. Meanwhile, I've still got things to say in relation to Soap.

First, I want to Clarify something that I said to him.

"You Know, Soap, you are continually Misunderstanding the Reason why I Blog. I am not Here in Order to Listen to Relentless Suggestions about the Fact that I Need to Learn this and Learn that."

Actually, I am here to learn, yet True Learning involves information supporting both sides of any Issue and when there is Only One Commenter leaving Links, then this is not what is Happening, thus explains my Frustration.

My other Main Commenter is a Democrat and he is very Polite, but I've been wanting to Hear from other Republicans, as well. The Voice of the Moderate is the One that has too Often been Lacking on my Blog.

I Very Much Thank Dave and Radar for Dropping by. Their Comments are very much Appreciated. I Need more Voices than I sometimes get on this Blog, yet I do not Currently have the Time to go out and Pursue them like I would like to.

The Link that you Left, Soap, is 8 Pages Long when Printed. I'm a Slow Reader and I Read what I can. Occasionally, I get Commenters that Leave Shorter Links and these are the Ones that I am more Likely to Read.

Guilt Trips relating to my "Laziness" when it Comes to Reading do not Help to Motivate me to Read the Links. Think whatever you Want to, yet your Persuasion Approach is not Working and that is what you Need to be Focusing on, whether then your Perceived Laziness of those who "do not Study the Issues".

BB-Idaho said...

Regarding libertarians & Ron Paul,
an observation:
Most of Paul's support is from the
younger set; most of them are not
libertarians-IMO, many support the
idea of less foreign involvement
and the idea of legalizing street
drugs. Oddly, only 4% of people over 55 support Ron Paul. Perhaps the reason is best summarized by
this blogger, a retired combat vet:
"As a young man, I entered the military as a relatively moderate conservative. I listened to Rush Limbaugh, I had few interests in helping anyone but myself, I was known to make sexist and (yes, I'm afraid) racist jokes once in a while.
But then I met people. I learned things. I discovered that a "society" made up of devoted followers of Ayn Rand would simply fall into chaos: with every member dedicated to their own selfish pursuits, the fabric of that society would eventually fall to shreds. Why would a Randian want to join the police, teach, be a nurse, or the enlisted ranks of the military, where nobody gets rich? A philosophy of selfish materialism can only work if it is allowed to grow, like a wart or a tumor, out of an otherwise healthy society.
Look up the history of the "robber barons" in industrial America to see how well that worked out."
...if we've been around a long time, possess a lifetime of experience, we become suspicious
of the merits of 'laissez faire'
and realize that most people, the people who really contribute--are
not motivated by how much money
(or liberarian gold) they can accumulate.

Lista said...

Chuckle. Thanks for your Comment, BB. I Chuckled because I Think it is Interesting that a Large Chunk of Ron Paul Support comes from the Youth, that is Uneducated and Inexperienced People that just want the Right to Legally do Drugs.

Thanks, though, for a Very Good and Insightful Comment. Though I have said that I would Love to Hear from some more Moderate Republicans, even Moderate Democrats, like yourself, Make Far more sense then either Socialist/Communists or Libertarians.