Friday, May 29, 2009

Lead a Horse to Water/Not Pride, but Depression

Here is the Post that I intended to Post on Tuesday, 2/26/2009, but it seemed that God blocked it, for I sensed a check in my Spirit and well, as it turns out, God did not want me not to Post this, but only to delay in Posting it, for it seems that I was supposed to Post two others in the mean time. The best way for me to refer you Googlers to the other related Posts is to refer you to May's Archive, or for the rest of you, just scroll down and read them.

I hope that those of you who are not Spiritual will not mind me inserting comments in my writings about how God speaks to me. I do often sense His guidance in my writing and sometimes I actually listen. LOL.

Anyway, the original Inspiration for this Post came from the Comment Section of the Post, "The Unmotivated Electorate/Voters/Basic Economics", which you will probably want to read if you want to better understand this Post. In short, I suggested in this Post how it might be helpful to set up more Information Centers to help people learn about the Issues and the Candidates that they will be Voting on. The Comments that I am responding to now in this Post can be found beneath the Post that I've just left a Link to.

When I submitted a Comment on May 22, 2009, at 7:53 AM, beneath the above Linked Post, I had Type Written 1 1/3 Pages and only submitted the first 1/3 Page. The other Page has given me some pause and I was wondering the following morning if I should try and rewrite it while Speaking more from the Heart.

Well, once I got going on this Post, I realized that it was long enough to be at least 2 Posts and maybe more. Hopefully, I will one day get around to the Speaking from the Heart part, but for now, I'm just going to respond a little more to a few of the comments beneath the above linked Post.

The first thing that I want to respond to is Griper’s Statement You Can’t Force People to Inform themselves.” (Griper, May 16, 2009, at 10:41 PM). The second time I read this Comment, the second half of the sentence caught my eye; “Especially those who believe they do not need any.” In reading this, I have noticed that he was Focusing on the Proud, yet it is actually the Slow Readers and Slow Learners that I was first thinking of when suggesting these Information Centers and then later I was also thinking about those who Lack Motivation because they are either Stressed, Discouraged or Depressed. The Arrogant and Proud are a totally separate group and are not really the segment of the population that I think these Centers should be focused on anyway.

BB-Idaho said something similar in that “The Black/White People will not attend. They already know all the answers.” (BB-Idaho, May 18, 2009, at 5:37 AM). Again, the Focus is on the Unwillingness of the Proud, yet again, that is not who I think these Centers are primarily for.

In further response to that Comment, perhaps some of the “Centrists” and “Gray Area Folks” “do not Prioritize their Politics as the Overriding thing in their Lives”, yet you know something? As much as the Black and White Folk may not like it, it is the "Centrists", "Gray Area", "Moderates" and especially the ones who “Lack Passion and Conviction” and/or “CAN’T DECIDE that decide the Elections. A lot of what I put in quotes in this Paragraph and the next one is in quotes because this has been suggested in the Comment section of one of Z’s Posts, "This Gospel of Moderation".

Motivating, Educating and Persuading the Electorate is not about changing the minds of the Black and White, Stubborn, Proud, Unbending and Impossibly Resistant. It’s about the “Luke Warm”, Moderate, “Non-Passionate”, “Non-Committed”, “Lacking Conviction”, “Unmotivated”, Undecided Voter, who is not really so Stubborn and Painfully Resistant, just Unmotivated. This is who needs to be targeted. The Stubbornness of the Black and White Thinker and the Extremist is not a concern because that’s not who we should be targeting anyway.

Soapboxgod also said something similar to what’s already been discussed relating to not being able to “Force” the Unwilling. In Soap’s words, “You can Lead a Horse to Water, but you can not Make him Drink.” (Soapboxgod, May 18, 2009, at 12:00PM). When ever I hear this statement, I am always reminded of how in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and similar places, they give Salt to Camels in order to “Persuade” them to drink lots of water just prior to a trip through the Desert and apparently it works rather well.

Here’s the thing. Too often people use statements like this in order to justify their decision to not even try to Persuade. As you can see from the Comments of all three of those mentioned, this practice is quite wide spread. It’s a contradiction, though, because there is no such thing as a Politically Motivated person who does not try to Persuade. They only call on the “Horse to Water” Statement when they don’t care as much about an Issue.

Another similar Quote from this same Comment (May 18, 2009, at 12:00PM) is Soap’s words “People need to have the Fortitude to seek out this Information.” This is a similar Cop Out as the “Horse to Water” Statement just mentioned. The idea is to place the blame on the UNMOTIVATED PERSON and thus justify any reluctance to do anything that’s helpful.

Here’s another Quote, “If educating the electorate is your primary goal, then it behooves each individual party as a whole to guide their members towards books, think tanks, research, etc., which is in tune with said party's ideology, principles, beliefs, etc.” The problem with this statement is that it focuses mainly on “Members”, many of which have already decided to Vote with the Party, yet just as mentioned above, the Audience that we need to reach is not the Black and White/Extremists, nor even those who are simply Loyal to their Party, but the Moderates, who are “Less Passionate”, “Less Motivated”, “Less Committed” and Undecided. To draw those to the Centers, some Advertising outside of the Party Membership is going to be required.

I guess I could also point out that just because a person is not fully Motivated does not necessarily make them Unwilling.

To Elaborate on the actual Title of this Post, sometimes "Lack of Motivation" has more to do with Depression than Pride. I guess I don't have to educate you very much in relation to the fact that Depression is just the Opposite of Pride. Depression involves not Liking Oneself and not Believing in Oneself and just so that you can Understand what I'm getting at, Statements such as "You can't Force People to do anything.", "Black/White People will not attend. They already know all the answers." and "You can Lead a Horse to Water, but you can not Make him Drink." do absolutely nothing to address the issue of Lack of Motivation, as it relates to not pride, but to the slow Reader and Learner and also those who suffer from Discouragement, Stress and Depression.

Statements such as "I can't Force you or Make you." are actually not that helpful when said in response to a humble person who is simply asking for help. In fact, these statements come across as quite Accusatory and they Focus more on Guilt than on Encouragement, but I can assure you by my own experience that Accusations and Guilt never produce much Motivation. Instead they produce just the opposite; an increase in Discouragement and Depression.

20 comments:

The Griper said...

the word "help" in itself is a difficult concept. for it to have any meaning at all the word "voluntary" must be a part of it. help can be offered or it can be asked. but we must accept that regardless of which it is that it is the decision of the other person whether or not help is given or received.

we can't impose our will upon another then say we are helping or are getting help.

i may know that someone needs something that i have to give and can offer it but if that person turns it down i need to respect his decision. i may also know that someone has something i may need and ask for it but if he turns me down i have to respect that decision. this would apply both in regards to what a person can do and in regards to what possession a person can give away.

in other words, an imposition of a person's will on another in order to give or receive aid cannot be considered as help. it is in this conbtext that i used the word force. it is also in this context that the saying "you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink" is applied.

as for these centers you'd like to open, the first thing you need to ask is "how many persons that you think would benefit from it would go to them voluntarily?"

myself, i do not think there'd be enough to make them worthwhile. reason: politics, by its very nature, is partisan and people will only compromise when they have to not because it is the best solution to a problem.

The Griper said...

here, you might wanna read this. it may be about what you seem to be seeking or at least something along the lines.
transparency in government

Lista said...

Thanks for you Comments, Griper. Your remarks are very good and I'll be back a little later to respond.

BB-Idaho said...

" politics, by its very nature, is partisan.." pretty much describes it in a nutshell. Local editorial
up this way addresses it as 'no one is much interested in fact anymore, they flock to their favorite opinion'. If there are facts, numbers, data..each side trots out its favorite data along with the requisite spin. We have seen this in GlobalWarming, HealthCare, MinimumWage, BailOuts, CEO bonuses..ad infinitum. It is
an old problem...
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."
- Autobiography of Mark Twain

Lista said...

BB,
Still just quickly passing through, but I do have a quick minute to say that we should avoid words such as "No One", for there are always exceptions. What I think the real problem is, though, is that there is very little that can be absolutely proved and yet so few people are willing to admit this. Almost everyone is totally convinced that what they believe is provable even though it is not.

Lista said...

Hi Griper,
I'm not sure why it has taken me so long to Post this Comment. I wrote it in my Word Processor Sunday morning before Church (1/31/09) and then somehow got distracted.

And thanks so much for your comment. I was a little afraid to do this Post because I was afraid of further misunderstanding because I get that so often in this matter.

Your response, though, is actually rather good. It wasn't until the 4th paragraph down, that I was having trouble with anything in it. Your initial Comment on the earlier Linked Post contained the phrase "Especially those who believe they do not need any.", which refers to the Stubborn and Proud.

The emphasis is also on the person who refuses help, whether than on the person who is actually asking for help and in the "Horse to Water" phrase, the emphasis is the same.

The observation that I was making when I did this Post was that the focus of all the commenters was the same. All three of the commenters were focusing on the person who is Stubborn and Proud and refuses help. None of you considered the person who might actually be asking for help.

Sure, people have the right to refuse to help and say. "No, I'm sorry, but I can't help you.", but no one said that. You all just changed the focus from the requester to the one who refuses help. It came across as side stepping the issue and pointing fingers at the other party, which in this case is not the giver, but the receiver. Thanks, Griper, for finally addressing the actual issue that was presented.

Your question "How many persons that you think would benefit from it would go to them voluntarily?" is a very good one and believe it or not I did consider this because a Low Demand for something is also a part of the Economy even within Volunteerism and not just the selling of products. To be a part of a Minority that needs something is actually a rather sad place to be. And I've been forcing myself lately to consider the possibility that that's what going on here.

Sometimes Minority Needs can be addressed within Centers that cater to other things besides just the Minority Issue, for example the Public Library could have a Political Section in it and this would not require as much additional time and effort as setting up an entirely separate Information Center.

In your last paragraph, Griper, you returned the focus to the Stubborn and Proud, or in this case those who will not Compromise. You are still forgetting about the most important group of Voters that exists, which is not the Stubborn Non-Compromiser, but the Moderate and the Undecided Voter. I have said repetitively now that the Stubborn, Non-Compromiser (Black & White, Extremist) is not who these Centers are for.

You are acting like the Undecided Voter is a Minority Group and yet the numbers are significant enough that Politicians do address them.

Thanks for the Link. I'll check it out.

BB-Idaho said...

There is an informative study of the growing importance of the center or moderate portion of the voting population. As I understand, it is not that they are uninformed, but just not comfortable with the growing gap between the extremes.
As an aside, you may find my run-in with Beth of interest.

The Griper said...

there are very few persons more stubborn and non-compromising than you, lista.

Lista said...

Thanks for writing BB,
As usual, I wish I had more time to respond and also to Blog. There are some really big issues going on in my life and heart right now and these things always seem to slow down my Blogging.

Griper,
Ouch! Let's talk about that through private Email, but please give me a minute first, mostly because of what I just said to BB. Sometimes life just plain hurts and it takes time to sort it out.

BB,
Thanks again for writing. I have been thinking about both you and my Blog.

Lista said...

Griper,
I wonder if I misunderstood that. There is nothing currently in my Email box that indicates that you are upset with me. You can go ahead and tell me what you mean publicly if you stick to examples that are already public.

Gosh! I'm not even sure anymore whether being Stubborn and Non-Compromising is an Insult or a Complement. There are so many people on the Blog-o-sphere that seem to think that being "Non-Compromising" when it comes to principles and values is a good thing. In Relationships, though, often Compromises are necessary, so you never can tell whether or not a statement such as you just made is meant to be an insult. Maybe not. Please explain.

Lista said...

Hey BB,
Do me a favor and keep talking to me, so if I do feel like writing more on this Comment Thread, I will not feel like I'm talking to myself. I did read the first of the links that you left above and found it interesting. I have a hard time remembering all the information, but noticed right away that the Republicans are outnumbered. Being a Republican myself, I find that quite discouraging.

I guess it is probably time for me to do another Post again. I'm beginning to realize that the reason why people so often drift off subject on my Blog is because I don't Post often enough, so there is quite a limited selection of subjects to choose from.

I sometimes lack the inspiration that I need, though, and I think it is at least in part because my views might be changing a little, or perhaps it is the language I use that needs to change.

When I can't even figure out whether words such as "Stubborn" and "Non-Compromising" are Insults or Complements, that is when I realize that the English Language has become so Conflicting and Confused, yet as you know, there are people on the Blog-o-sphere that have made words like "Compromise" into Emotionally Charged words and I guess that would make words like "Non-Compromising" a Complement, depending on who you are talking to.

I've gotten a lot of flack from Beth relating to the subject of "Compromise" being a Negative, rather than Positive thing. Griper too, though. For I really do think that I remember him saying something on the Comment Thread of one of his Posts about the fact that we just really shouldn't Compromise our basic Principles and Values, so the question still remains as to whether being "Stubborn and Non-Compromising" is actually more of a Complement or an Insult.

I guess I’ll have to read soon about the little "Run in you had with Beth".

Thanks for dropping by, BB. You are another of my very dear friends.

BB-Idaho said...

I think we've noted before how both
wings hate the center..more than each other; denigrate this large group as uninterested, fence-rider
uncomitted wafflers. It is growing, however..apparently in response to the inflamed rhetoric
proffered by the extremes. Of interest is why such moderates should be so despised. Perhaps because the blacks & whites know they cannot convince each other, concentrate on the large gray group and fail to connect? It may be that most folks are simply not attracted to what they perceive as extreme opinion. It is noticeable, though that 'converting' through arrogance and meaness naturally fails...

Lista said...

Oh BB,
You have no idea how refreshing it is to hear your voice after having a rather Frustrating Conversation with someone else. Do you think there is any chance I could have your Email address?

I'm not able to get it by just clicking on something within my Blogging Program like Gayle seems to be able to. I do have a Personal Email Address now that can be used in order to talk to people on the Web. If you send me your Email Address, though, in the form of a Comment, I will not Post it, if that's what you request.

"Both wings hate the center, more than each other."

Yes, and that's because the Darkness Hates the Light and I know that neither side is going to like that statement, but I'm afraid that's still the way that I see it.

I was so tempted to end my last comment with you with hugs and kisses and refrained but, you know what? What the heck? Here's all the Hugs and Kisses. You're a pal and you deserve it. :):)

BB-Idaho said...

Z-Man has posted on the ethnology and semantics of 'extremism' today.
It seems to be a perjorative label
used by the opposite extreme, or as he notes 'legitimate viewpoint'.
There is a lot of material out there on the subject and it seems one of those concepts which is so loosely and variously interpeted as to be undefinable to the satsifaction of all.

Lista said...

Thanks BB,
You may not realize it, but you are right now playing an interesting roll in helping me to not lose my focus. I went to a Funeral today and that has put a little bit of a damper on my basic mood. There are other things that are distracting me as well. You are doing exactly what I need right now, by telling me, "Here's what Beth has Posted and here's what Z has Posted." (a Slight Paraphrase).

It's as if you're saying, "Come on back, Lista. The Blogs are still here and so am I." Actually this is just the sort of prodding that I need right now, so Thank you.

Lista said...

Griper,
You know, in spite of your above comment and the fact that we can butt heads occasionally, I still think you're a great guy. I'll just have to knock you around a little once in awhile, as you also do it to me. lol. :):) Whatever. I still think you're a great guy. Hugs and Kisses. Take care.

BB-Idaho said...

I have to chuckle at 'true believers' seeking conversion by
denigration. To protect the innocent, the identity of blogs and commenter are blank.
"I feel like we should all be flying the flag at half staff until that halfrican is OUT of office." Mr. X [Blog A]
"The leftards use two words to try to supress our speech. They are "extremist" and "racist."
It's so automatic with many of them that it is almost comical."
Mr. X [Blog B]
...comical, indeed! heh

Lista said...

Both sides do this and I think that part of the problem is that when we mainly are talking to others who hold the same views as ourselves, we start venting, the frustration and anger escalate and we forget to be polite a respectful in case someone from the other side happens to be listening.

BB-Idaho said...

True. There are no rules in blogging, and it is not like a ice cream social. Try as I might, I have vented once in awhile: guess it adds nothing of value but makes us feel better. Like yesterday, I burned my hand on the lawnmower muffler..kicked it and called it an awful name...

Lista said...

Awe! Shame on you, but I'm sure the Lawnmower deserved it. Right? LOL.