Sunday, February 6, 2011

The Sun, The Wind, Dominants & Submissives

Ok.  Maybe I Will be Submitting this One.  I didn't Know Yesterday, when I Posted, that I would be Posting two Days in a Row and yet somehow it Seems like the Appropriate Time to Submit this.

Here are just a Few Thoughts that I've been Recently Thinking about.  The First is about the Story of the Competition Between the Sun and the Wind.

The Sun and the Wind were Talking about a Man Walking Below them who had his Coat on and they Both Claimed that they could Influence the Man to Take his Coat Off.  The Wind Went First and Tried to Use Force.  He Blew and Blew and Blew in the Attempt to Blow the Coat Off of the Guy, but the Harder the Wind Blew, the More the Man Clung to the Coat, so the Wind was Unsuccessful in Forcing the Man to Do as the Wind was Insisting on.

Next, the Sun Took a Turn.  Instead of Force, the Sun Simply Used Warmth.  The Sun Came Out and Shown Brightly, Warming Up the Air Until, Guess What?  The Man Removed his Coat of his Own Free Will, without being Forced in any Way to Do so.

So what is the Moral of the Story.  Well, the Warmth of Love is more Effective than any Form of Forceful Persuasion.

I've Know this for a Very Long Time and yet Applying it is so Very Hard to do.  Sometimes the Way in which People Resist us and at Times Behave in Ways that we Consider Inconsiderate just Cause us to Feel Angry to the Point in which Our Love Dries Up, yet Applying Our Own Source of Forceful Wind does not Alleviate the Problem.

As Difficult as it is, the Lord Says that we are to "Turn the Other Cheek" (v. 39), "Go the Extra Mile" (v. 41), "Give to him who Asks of us" (v. 2) and "Pray for our Enemies" (v. 44).  (Matthew 5:39-44)

Here is where I have Struggled in Relation to this...

I've Discovered that there are People Out there who have Divided the World into Dominants and Submissives and who Appear to Believe that the Above Verses are for those who are Submissive by Nature.  I Hated this because the Above Verses are not just for "Submissives", but for Everyone.  The Other Reason that I Hated this is because if a "Submissive" does Apply the Above, God does not Get the Glory, for if Submissiveness is in some People's Nature, then those who are Submissive get the Credit for Acting in Accordance with their Own Nature and it is not God who Gets the Glory.

The Other Problem with Dividing the World into Dominants and Submissives is that Submissives then, get Taken for Granted.  They are Viewed as People who are just Acting in Accordance to their Nature and the Full Extent of the Sacrifice that is being Made is not Recognized.  This Results in Lack of Appreciation and a Disregard for their Needs.

What such a Dominant doesn't Realize is that these Verses were Written for Everyone, not just for Submissives and that the Principle that the Sun Persuades Better than the Wind is Still True, even for those who are Dominant.  Submissives are Human Beings and Human Beings do not Always Behave as they Should.  Even if there is Submissiveness in that Person's Nature, the Dominant is Still Required to be Warm, rather than Cold and Forceful.

What I have Said is Actually Quite Conservative in Nature, for I Know that Some would go even Further with the Idea in Favor of these "So Called 'Submissives'" by saying that there is no such thing and we are all Equal.


Satyavati devi dasi said...

I'm assuming you're not using the Dominant/submissive thing in the generally accepted sexual fetishism sense?

Because otherwise this whole thing takes on a rather weird sense to it.

Lista said...

I don't Know if you've been Reading my Blog when I've Been Talking about a Manipulative Friend that I had awhile Back. Well, He Talked about Dominants and Submissives a Lot.

Obviously, the Man as the Head of the House Idea has been Made into Something Quite Ugly by Men that are Control Freaks. To be Quite Honest, I Struggle with that Idea, as it is a Very Commonly Accepted Idea in the Churches. If a Man was Fully and Completely Submitted to God, then Submitting to him would not be so Bad, yet Even the Best of them Have their Selfish Moments.

This doesn't have to be a Discussion about that, though, for there are People who are Dominants and Submissives by Nature. Some People are just more Passive and not quite as Opinionated as Other People. Not Everyone is a Born Leader. A lot of People Always have been and Always will be Followers and that is just how it is.

Most of us that do this Blogging Thing are Pretty Opinionated, though. There is Probably a Rather Limited Number of Submissive Follower Types Among us, but that doesn't Mean that they do not Exist.

To Assume that Such Deserve Less of what the World has to Offer, though, is not a Very Generous Point of View. Too me, that shows Lack of Appreciation for all those who Work Very Hard, as they Follow, Do what they're Told and don't Complain. Personally, I Think such a One should be given a rather Big Pay Check, because they Possess something that so Many of the Others Lack and Deserve Far more than what they Usually Get.

My Mother is a Submissive in Ways that I Never did Understand, nor Inherit. I'm an Obnoxious, Bull Headed, Opinionated Brat, in Comparison to her and I Never Seemed to be Able to Make myself be anything else.

I'm not a Bad Person, I just have Trouble being Submissive without going into Depression and it's Funny how sometimes People don't Believe me when I Tell them that.

Lista said...

Hi Satyavati,
I've been Thinking again about your Comment and Realizing that the Language of Dominant/Submissive is indeed Rather "Weird", when Used Outside of the Context of the Sexual Fetishism that you have Mentioned, or at the Very Least, some form of Chauvinism.

Your Comment is Actually Confirming Something for me about someone Who has been Messing with my Mind. This someone Claims that I Make Assumptions and Yet the Truth of the Matter is that his Language most Definitely Implies Exactly what I "Assume".

I, on the other Hand, am more than Willing to Change my Language for anyone who would Prefer to Talk about Leaders and Followers, rather than Dominants and Submissives, for such Language is softer, less Controlling and Domineering and is all that is Necessary in Order to Get the Point Across about the Two Different Personality Types that are Out there.

You see, When People Insist on Using Language that Offends and Implies in Ways that Stir Anger, this Creates Misunderstandings, rather than Clarity.

When Talking to this Person, I Often had to Stress that the Language Implies, so that he Could not Insist that he was not Implying anything, yet Certain Language does Imply and when this Occurs, the One Using this Language, whether Intending to or not, is In Fact Implying.

If he had Really Wanted to Get Rid of the Undesired Implication, he could have just as Easily Used the Language of Leader/Follower Instead.

For Beth's Benefit, I'm going to Add that I Actually Interacted with this Person for a Time in Order to See what I Could Learn. I do not Always Take the Avoidance Approach Right Away, even when a lot of People are Telling me that I should. That's just me.

BB-Idaho said...

Kind of interesting-"I've Discovered that there are People Out there who have Divided the World into Dominants and Submissives"
..the proclivity for dividing humans into two
categories gives rise to:
Mark Twain.."Those who accomplish things and those who claim to have accomplished things"
Robert Benchley- "Those who divide people into two categories and those that
don't" ..
Anonymous Libertarian-
"Those that are individualist and those that are collectivist"
From other sources-
"Creative thinkers and
critical thinkers"...
"Those who follow instructions, and those who don't"
"Those that give and those that take"
"Those that believe false dichotomies and those that do not"
...from which it becomes apparent, some in the population may have mixed attributes of the above, so the next step is Three Types of People:
"Those that can count and those who can't"
From Clint Eastwood, "the three types of people are the Good, Bad And The Ugly", IMO, however we divide folks into types, and however many types we use...there will be exceptions.

Lista said...

"Creative Thinkers and Critical Thinkers"

This Assumes that those who are Critical are not Creative and yet I'm not so sure that that is True. I Think Instead that those who are not Critical and just Accept the Norm are Less Creative.

"Those who Give and Those who Take"

I've Heard this Described as Co-Dependent Givers and Co-Dependent Takers. That is the Two Parts of a Co-Dependent Relationship.

"however we divide folks into types, and however many types we use...there will be exceptions."

Exactly and not Only that, but there are also Degrees Ranging from one End of the Scale to the Other. That is Degrees of Gray, rather than just Black and White.

BB-Idaho said...

"Creative thinkers and critical thinkers"..gets me off track a bit, because it reminds of the
right brain/left brain
phenomenon. Every test I
have taken from school, to
management, to the blogosphere places me at
50/50. Most likely, the population falls somewhere along a line from far left to far right (talking brain here, not politics :))

The Griper said...

"Those who Give and Those who Take"

seeing that as an act of codependency presumes an interaction between two separate persons.

it can also depict how one person can get what he wants also, one explicitly or the other implicitly.

Lista said...

That is Probably why you are so Balanced in your Thinking, BB, for 50/50 is the Perfect Ratio.

Like is Common in Relation to you, I have no Clue at all what you are Saying. Of Course a Co-Dependent Relationship is between Two Separate Persons and there is no Point in Denying that they Exist, because I Know otherwise.

People Pleasing is a Sickness that Leads to Depression. Trust me. I know what I'm Talking about and whether or not you Believe me doesn't Change anything.

Even if there is such a Thing as a True Submissive that gets Pleasure from Submitting, I am not One and a True Submissive and a People Pleaser are not the Same Thing. One Pleases because she wants to and the Other Pleases out of Guilt and Obligation. This is not at all the Same Thing, Griper, and Once again, whether or not you Believe me does not Change my Internal Reality.

Satyavati devi dasi said...


I've had to take those tests too.. I'm like 95% right brain dominant.


On the Meyers-Briggs I'm an INFP. Or an ENFP depending on how I'm relating to the world at the time.

Pamela D. Hart said...

Cool test, I’m 50/50

I’m a more dominant personality and my husband is more the submissive, but I’d much rather use the terms extroverted and introverted. Over our almost 30 years together, however, we’ve grown a lot and I’ve learned to hold back and he’s learned to lead, although it’s not his favorite thing to do. He’d much rather have me “handle” things as he just hates confrontations. I’m not fond of them much anymore (I used to thrive on stress years ago).

I think the most important part is recognizing our personalities (strengths & weaknesses) because once we do that we are then AWARE of what we are or aren’t doing. Now, this is good because we can remove ourselves from situations that hurt us or make us feel uncomfortable because we can’t change anyone else or their personalities, especially if they don’t realize they are “dominant”.

Lista said...

Thanks Pamela,
Besides the Dominant/Submissive Roles, the Other Point in this Post is the Responsibility of the Dominant/Extrovert to be Loving, rather than Controlling. If all that a Dominant Cares about is One's Own Personal Needs and Believes that the Role of the Submissive is None Other than to Please the Dominant, than the Dominant is Unbalanced and Way Out of Line and will Soon Loose the Loyalty, Trust and Respect of the Introverted Follower.

Thanks Pam. I Like the Phrase Introverted Follower. That's Much Nicer than Submissive. Very Insightful Comment. I Think yours is the Very Best of my Comments. Thank you.

Oh, and I always Test Right in the Middle between Extrovert and Introvert, so anyone who Thinks that a Person has to be One or the Other and that Role Reversals are not also Common in Relationships is Thinking in Black and White Terms that do not Reflect the True Facts.

Thanks also BB for Bringing Up the Test. Turns Out that it is not at all Off Topic. This Post is not about Politics anyway, but about Relationships, unless you want to call that the Politics of Relationships. lol. :)

Pamela D. Hart said...

Lista: Thanks for the compliment about my comment. It takes me awhile because I ponder on the topic forever!

The only problem with the “responsibility of the Dominant/Extrovert to be loving, rather than controlling” is that sometimes the D/E person doesn’t realize (s)he even has that type of personality! It can take years of therapy and self-help for people to “change” or “grow” from that, and that’s IF the person wants to change.

There’s the case with the Submissive/Introverted person who needs to make changes, too. A S/I person isn’t healthy, either. There needs to be balance.
A person shouldn’t be too much of either—dominant or submissive. Balance is the key. Or moderation, if that’s a better word. The problem is realizing there is a “problem” and then finding ways to correct it.

The Griper said...

i wasn't talking about any particular form of relationship. i was speaking of that quote i copied, that is all.

Lista said...

Again, I Love your Comment, Pamela. You are so Right On!!

I Mentioned Co-Dependency Earlier. This is an Unhealthy Relationship in which One of the Parties Takes too Much and the Other gives too Much. Some will Deny that this is Unhealthy, yet Probably the Most Common Usage of the Co-Dependent Description is in Relation to Alcohol and Drug Problems, as well as Wife Abuse.

In All of these Cases, the Submissive, also Called Enabler, Makes Excuses for the Alcoholic, Drug Addict or Abuser and Puts Up with their Unhealthy Behaviors. There are Other Forms of Abuse Besides Beating. Abuse can be Verbal or can even Involve Forms of Control and Neglect.

Well, that's Fine, and that Same Quote Caused me to Think of a Co-Dependent Relationship.