Well, I Guess I'll do another Post because I have more to Say, even though, so far, no one appears to be Talking on my Previous Post. This is Actually just a Continuation of my thoughts from my Previous Post (the Next Post Down).
I have already Mentioned how sometimes the Rules can Create Problems because of the Subjective Nature of them. We have a Problem, though, because I have Found that the Absence of Rules can Create a sort of Chaos, in which Nothing Constructive gets done. I guess what Needs to Happen is that we Need to have a Fair, Reasonable and Unbiased Referee.
In the Comment Section of My Previous Post, I Mentioned the Problems of Preaching, or just Stating One's Opinion, or even Stating Facts, yet not being Willing to Enter into a Discussion about those Opinions, or the Validity of the Stated "Facts".
Another Thing that Frustrates me is that when I Think about how Few Comments I get at Times, I Wonder if the Only Way to Get People to Talk is to be Controversial and Opinionated and to Stimulate the sort of Debate that does not Follow any Rules and at Times Ends up being a Waist of Time. When too many Rules are Added and People are Expected to Behave, so many of them just Stop Talking. As Odd as it seems, it really does Appear at Times that People Love to Argue, get all Angry and Heated Up and Waste Time.
Perhaps some are also Unwilling to Admit the Extent to which they Love to Argue. Some will even Deny that they are Arguing or Debating or Expressing any sort of an Opinion. "I'm just Stating FACTS and FACTS can not be Debated." was the Way it was Expressed to me Recently. Never Mind, though, that the Facts Presented are all Related to Faults and Extremes Relating to the Person's Opponent and that the OPINION on what these Facts Mean is Very Strongly Implied.
Yes, I guess I am now Talking about someone and Perhaps I shouldn't be, yet somethings like this just Need to be Addressed and Corrected. In Truth, the Only way that FACTS can Truly "Speak for themselves" is when ALL the Facts are Presented and not just that which can be said that is Negative about one's Opponent. Yes, "Facts are Facts", yet they are Biased, not just Based on what is Presented, but on what has been Left Out and so this is where Bias and OPINION comes in and this is Why to Present Facts and then Deny one's Participation in a Debate is Foolishness.
Sometimes there is no End to the Number of Rules that a Person would have to Apply in Order to be Rid of all the Poor Debate Tactics that People Use. Now I am Speaking in General again.
If anyone is Listening, Please do Comment. I do so want to hear what others have to say about Debating, Civility, what is and isn't a good Debate Tactic and What, if any, Rules should be Applied. Thank you.
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17 comments:
Since facts are statements made by human beings about how the world is, there is indeed an infinite number of facts available at any given moment, and anyone stating a fact has always chosen to single out that fact from the infinite pool. Sometimes facts singled out are important and change the course of a discussion in important ways; other times they are red herrings, pulling attention away from what's more important. But there! What is IMPORTANT is also a matter of opinion!
Since my background is in philosophy, the word 'argument' means something very specific to me. It does not mean simple disagreement, and it certainly does not mean pointless yelling back and forth. An argument is a statement of position developed from stated premises with support given for its conclusion. Every move in an argument must conform to the rules of logic, and every statement must be true, or the conclusion does not follow.
What goes by the name of 'debate' in our times is not generally worthy of the name. Rules for debate are very formal and involve statements in turn by two parties, with specified time allowed for rebuttal and concluding arguments responding to rebuttals that responded to the original positions.
Putting aside formal debate, when one person presents an argument to another, that presentation is an invitation to discussion. If not, it is a lecture or a sermon and/or an insult to the listener's intelligence. But many people, I think, do not intend to be insulting and do not realize that they are being so. They are in the grip of excitement over what they have experienced as TRUTH and can't get past wanting to deliver this TRUTH to the poor, bemused world of ignorant fools around them.
Agree or disagree? Why or why not?
Odd thing about facts: Senator Moynihan observed 'People are entitled to their own opinion, but no their own facts'. Yet, we see
conflicting opinion about facts
and data. Either one side is wrong, or the 'facts' are lacking in 'factuality'? Is there wishful thinking or cognitive dissonace involved? Black and white
thinking vs gray area conclusions
is another area which leads to
corrupted argument. Worst is the
resorting to hyperbole, vitriol
and personal insult. IMO any user of these last three has lost the
argument.
Thanks You so Very Much for your Comment, Grath.
Yes, What is IMPORTANT is Definitely a Matter of Opinion, so this is not just the Stating of "FACTS", now is it.
Thanks also for you Definition...
"An argument is a statement of position developed from stated premises with support given for its conclusion."
Couldn't it be Said, though, that the Stating of Facts, while Singling Out Certain Facts from the Infinite Pool of Facts and Leaving Out Others is an Indirect Statement of a Position on what is Important and what is not. Isn't that, in Fact, an Implied Opinion and an Argument for that Opinion? That being so, isn't the Stating of such Facts the same as the Participation in a Discussion, Argument or Debate?
In my Opinion the Claim "I am ONLY Stating the FACTS" is Misleading and to Deny, while doing so, Involvement in a Discussion is an Inaccurate Denial of what is True.
If such a Statement is Made when ever this Person is Confronted about Poor "Arguments", then it is an Avoidance Technique, Used to Escape Criticism.
Thanks again for you Comment Garth. I am so Very Glad that you Dropped by.
BB,
Yes, we do Indeed "see conflicting opinion about facts
and data."
"Resorting to hyperbole, vitriol and personal insult. IMO any user of these last three has lost the argument."
I Tend to Agree, with the Exception of a Minor Goof now and then. I guess I could say that the Repetitive use of these Things Results in the loss of the Argument.
The idea of argumentative blogging
brings up a related phenomenon: topic drift. Quite often the original subject is either ignored, or gradually changed through the commenting process.
The process is neither good nor
bad, but just as interesting as the
junior high games where one person
gives a statement to another, then
she to another and so on..often
with startling results when the last person repeats. There is
even a blogger that studied this
by listing the beginning and ending comments from various threads. Not too surprising that most times there was little or
no relation to topic. Probably tells us more about human nature
than classic argument.....
Thanks for your Comment, BB. If a Subject is Important to me, then I do not Like Comment Drift. If it is less Important to me, then sometimes I allow it. I Wrote to Satyavati about this Subject Recently on Z-man's Blog and perhaps I'll Repeat some of that here, but for now I'm going to be Short because I've got to Run.
In Short, I'm a Little Slow and Can Not Handle Fast Moving Blogs that Contain Multiple Subjects in the Comment Thread. It sort of Stresses me. Sorry, but that's just how I am.
Thanks again for your Comment.
Lista: Maybe the “debate problem” has more to do with the attendees than rules. When we are speaking with an unreasonable, immature, or (insert your favorite adjective here) person the conversation can get frustrating, go no where, or end in an argument. And even if you have rules, a person like that won’t follow them anyway. It’s best to steer clear of those types of people, or steel your nerves before you engage! ;-)
P.S. I like that graph.
Hi Pamela,
I always Look Forward to your Comments and I Thank you.
A Problem that I am Currently having is that I really do Like the Blog Author, yet he seems to Attract People who have Extreme Views, that is Views that are Far from the Center, and the Only way to "Avoid" the ones who Frustrate me would be to also Avoid the Blog of a rather Nice Guy. His Comment Threads Often Move Far too Fast for me and yet Once in awhile, I Peak in on his Posts anyway.
My head is still Spinning, though, from my Last encounter there.
Lista, I think the primary reason for few comments is the comment moderation... it makes developing any sort of discussion flow next to impossible (unless you can devote full-time to checking and moderating, which is of course unrealistic in most cases). The flipside, of course, is the discussion devolving into something you don't want when there are no rules or moderation. I don't think there's really any good solution to the problem that I've ever seen.
Hi IAMB,
My Blog is Designed for People who want to Think Through the Issues at a Slower Pace. Conversations on most Blogs Move so Fast that it is Hard to Really Think. The Subject is Constantly Changing, Insults Run Rampant and Very Little Gets Accomplished.
On Slower Blogs, you can always Check the "Follow Up Comments will be Sent to..." Box and Receive Notification in your Email Box whenever there is Activity in any Comment Threat that Interests you.
Thanks for Taking the Time to Tell me your Concerns. Please do Comment Occasionally, for I Welcome it.
Actually, I need to correct myself: one moderating strategy I've seen work well is used by the guys at the Panda's Thumb... rather than disallowing off-topic comments and other such undesirable rantings, they have an ongoing forum post called "the Bathroom Wall" (in reference to bathroom wall graffiti)... obnoxious and off-topic stuff gets sent there, along with replies/discussion relating to said undesirables. Seems to work well for them, but then again you have to have enough free time to police comments constantly.
I've personally never had the urge to have follow-up stuff emailed to me... makes for an unreasonable amount of email to sort through. Then again, since my activity in the blog world has dropped to almost nothing in the last few years, maybe it's not such a bad idea.
She Smiles.
That is an interesting approach, but then again, I don't have enough free time to police the comments constantly.
I Never have Fit in with those who Thrive in the Fast Moving Blogosphere. I sort of Wish that I had been Able to Attract more People to my Blog who are more Like myself, yet sometimes it just Feels like I am a Rare Breed. I'm So Often Misunderstood and So Often Judged and then I go into these Slumps and Feel Guilty because there are those who Keep Hitting my Blog anyway even though there is nothing much there to Read.
Don't they Realize that all they Need to do is Talk to me and then there will be something to Read.
Better yet, say something that Inspires me and then there will be quite a bit more here to Read. How do you do that? I don't Know, but it does Happen on Occasion.
Panda's thumb is one of the top five science blogs, according to
'Nature', a well known science
magazine. Like 'Pharyngula', it
is extremely fast-paced, with
comments in the hundreds, mostly
by PhDs in the biological sciences. Sort of fun to read,
but you have to be on top of your game. A similar, but political blog
in Canada, called 'Stage Left' has an esoteric following, specializing
in shredding any contrary opinion.
An opposition Canadian blog is called 'Canadian Sentinal' and they
periodically troll each other.
..reminds me, I gotta poke my nose in there and get it broken. :)
Hey you! Yeh, You with the Broken Nose. You always did make me Laugh.
Come here and let me Fix that for you. It may Sting just a little, though, so Try to be Brave. Oh, Stop your Screaming. You Big Baby. I assure you that you'll be Better in no time. When are you going to Learn to Avoid those Idiots? :)
To moderate or not to moderate/ if to moderate, how? There will be no problem-free solution. This is the double-edged sword of life, that every solution creates its own (sometimes new) problems. It's a matter of choosing the problems you can live with.
Whenever someone claims to be simply stating a fact, my response (which may stay inside my head!) is "Why? Why, out of all the possible facts in the universe from which you have to choose are you stating that particular fact right now? Statements are made for purposes. Where are you trying to get me to go?"
I like to move slowly, too, Lista. More and more in conversations that become argumentative, I choose to listen rather than speak.
P.J.
Grath,
You Know, there are Verses in the Bible that Talk about Avoiding Meaningless Debate. I Can't Think of an Exact Reference Right not, but I know that there are Several. The Trick is to Understand and Recognize the Difference between "Meaningless Debate" and that which is more Constructive. When I Think on these Verses, though, I Feel Like I actually have Biblical Support for my Decision to Moderate.
In Truth, I really have not Rejected Very Many of the Comments that are Submitted. Most of them do Get Through my Moderation, yet the Very Fact that Moderation is on Appears to Cause People to Behave.
As to "Choosing the Problems", if the Only Problem is that It is just Too Slow. Well, you Know what? I Came from an Era in which Speed was not so much of a God as it is now. The Only Reason why the Speed of a Conversation could Possibly be a Problem is Because of Impatience and I am not Impatient enough to Allow such a Trivial Thing to Bother me.
Also, Perhaps some will not Talk to me because of Moderation and Perhaps, some will not Even Read my Blog, yet those who Find Benefit in my Ramblings are Going to Remain Loyal no Matter what and the Rest Don't Matter.
"Why, out of all the possible facts in the universe from which you have to choose are you stating that particular fact right now? Statements are made for purposes. Where are you trying to get me to go?"
Exactly, and to Deny that there is a Point and a Motive Involved in the Presentation of Said Facts is a Denial of what is True.
Did you Happen to Click on the Link in my Most Recent Post? It is a Flow Chart of how People Try to Divert, rather then Presenting Arguments. Speed Works to the Advantage of Such Tactics. Slowness, though, Works to the Advantage of What's Actually True.
Those who Hate the Truth, though, are Probably not Going to Participate on my Blog and that is just Perfectly Fine with me.
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