Today I'm Thinking about one of Radar's Posts again...
Do Bad Things Happen to Christians because they are Bad?
He was Trying to Lead into a Discussion that is a Little more Deep and Personal, yet the Commenters on his Blog at Times Tend to be a little Rude and Insulting and do not Appear to have the Emotional Strength and Maturity to Handle Subjects that are Deeper then that of either an Intellectual Competition or a Brutal Insulting Match. At Least that's how it Seems. You will see what I Mean, if you Read the Comments.
My Blog is Safer. I Assure you that, especially on this Post, I will not allow any Insulting. If any come in, I will simply not Post them. Discussion about Emotional Issues can not be Allowed to be Diluted in that Way.
I Liked Radar's Post and also his Closing Comment, which I will Share in a Minute. I'm Going to have to Go and Read that Post Again now, since I've Made my Own Post of it. For Now, I just Remember him saying... (The Bold Print Emphasis is Mine.)
"We live in a world that is full of sin. Because Adam and Eve sinned, then sin and death came to the world and we all must suffer from this. There will be accidents and there will be evil. There is a law of reaping and sowing - if you work hard, you most likely succeed, if you goof off, you probably don't. If you are faithful in marriage, you will not get an STD, as long as your mate is also faithful. If you drive carefully you probably won't be in an accident - unless some careless person smashes into you. Sometimes while driving down a highway, I consider that each new car coming down the road could suddenly swerve into my path and quite possibly kill me and everyone with me. Usually we all stay in our lanes and avoid smashing each other."
Here is the Clincher in Relation to the Question of Suffering. Pain is in the World because God Allows Free Choice and yet the Consequence of that Privileged is that Sometimes we Suffer Because of Someone else's Sinful Choices, Carelessness and at Times, even Cruelty. Why does God Allow Cruel People to Exist? To Really make this Question Complete, we have to Include the Pain that is caused Deliberately by those who have no Conscience, Murderers, Rapists and the Like and not just the Pain of Cruel Speech or Careless Driving.
I've often been Frustrated myself with the Fragile Way in which we are Created. Emotions are Far too Strong and Hearts are Far too Easily Broken. Why, for Example, should the Crime of another Create Scars that will Last a Life Time. Perhaps the Sexual Abuse of Children should not have this Effect and yet it does. There is Very Little that can be Said in Order to Answer this Question, except that Life on Earth is Temporary and Life in Heaven will be Eternal. I do Know One Thing. Being Continually Angry about the Issue does not Cause it to go Away.
That's what I have to say in Response to Radar's Post.
Radar's Post, itself, is Very Good and I also Liked what is so Far, his Closing Comment. Here is a Quote of the Last Four Paragraphs of this Comment, which I Felt were Truly Excellent. The Bold Emphasis is Mine and I Added Links to some of the Scriptures that he Suggested...
"So meet God while you are alive and find out how great He really is...or meet Him after you have died and find out how righteous He really is. A Just God must punish sin. You want Jesus to pay that price for you or will you take it upon yourself?
"See, the above is what bringing the Bible into the discussion is all about. Read Romans chapters 4-10 and John from the beginning to say the end of chapter 10. Consider what Jesus said in John 3:16-18 and what Paul wrote in Romans 10:9-13. What did Romans 5:1 say? Romans 6:23? How about Romans 8:1? Does the Son of God come to Earth and perform miracles, teach the Gospel, accept punishment and shame and death for no reason? Why would God's Son separate Himself from a supernatural existence and live in a human body for 33-some years unless it was critically important? We know when Jesus lived and died and we have eyewitness accounts of His miracles and his resurrection.
"Nothing is what naturalistic materialists give credit to for the existence of the entire Universe and everything in it. The concept of nothing in place of God doesn't seem reasonable to me.
"Not for nothing did God's Son die for you."
Thanks, Radar. I Could not have Said that Better myself.
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30 comments:
"Why do bad things and suffering happen to Christians?"
Why do they happen to Hindus?
Muslims? Pets? Mormons? Spiders?
..few months back, a couple fellows were driving up the highway. At just that time, a huge
boulder up the mountain loosened and began rolling down the cliffs.
It crushed their car killing them
instantly. Why?
IMO, just the randomness of nature, and sure one can establish
philosophical/theological reasons and run through all the convolutions and iterations, but it would seem the simple answer
is randomness and it is simplest
to accept such.
Ok, Ok, I guess I should have said "Why do Bad Things and Suffering Happen to Good People?", yet the Answer Presented was the Christian Answer.
"It would seem the simple answer is randomness and it is simplest to accept such."
I don't Hardly Think that the Idea that we are Alone in the Universe would be a Simple Thing to Accept. Statistically, it just doesn't Make Sense. I don't want to Take the Time Right Now to Find the Statistics that I'm Talking about, but I'm sure that you have heard them.
They are Ridiculously Low Statistical Numbers, such as Billions and Trillions to One and even Smaller Still and they Relate to Things such as the Exact Distance from the Sun to allow Life to Exist, the Exact Speed of the Rotation, the Precise Make Up of the Atmosphere, Etc., Etc., Etc.
Prayer also has a Statistical Effect on Things that has been Scientifically Observed in Things such as Medical Patients and Even Yeast in Petri Dishes.
Yes, believe it or not, they Prayed over Yeast and God Honored their Request and the Prayed for Samples Grew Faster than the Samples that were not Prayed for. The Mysterious Question that is Often Asked, though, is Why does God Sometimes Answer Positively in some Form of Deliverance or Healing and Sometimes He does not and in my Opinion, Because of Lack of Faith is not an Adequate Answer.
She Smiles. Yes, I was Expecting that One and am also Aware that by that, you mean the Reincarnation sort of Karma, or the Karma from a Previous Life.
Er, so if a boulder squashes a
car and its occupants, we could
say it was 'karmageddon'?
(sorry bout that)
lolololololol.
That's Right, BB, and when Karmageddon Occurs, we are Getting Close to the End, so you better Watch Out for those Boulders. lol.
I've been Thinking about your Statement, "It would seem the simple answer is randomness and it is simplest to accept such."
Death is Easier to Accept when we Believe in Heaven. Randomness is Meaningless. Life has no Meaning Under that View and it Makes no Sense. At Least the Karma Idea allows for the Existence of God.
Christianity is Quite Different then that, though, for when Christ Died on the Cross, he did so in order to Deliver us from all Sin and Bad Karma. All we have to do is Admit Our Sin and Repent and God Removes all Bad Karma and Wipes the Slate Clean, so we can Start Fresh.
I've sometimes Heard the Word Justified Described as "Just as if". That is "Just as if I had Never Sinned."
Pride and Humility is Actually much more Key to Salvation then Living a Perfect Life Free of Bad Karma. For...
"In the same way, you who are younger must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you must clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.'" (1 Peter 5:5, NRSV)
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23, NRSV)
And
"If we confess our sins, He who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9, NRSV)
Feel Free to Replace the Word Sin with Bad Karma. The Wages of Bad Karma, According to the Scriptures, is Death, not Rebirth and in Biblical Terms, Death Means Eternal Separation from God. If we Admit or Confess, though, we are Cleansed from Bad Karma and Given Eternal Life.
Probably why Martin Luther was led to say, "Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ."
That would imply that the process is such:
1. Admit or confess
2. get cleansed from sin (karma is a different thing and for me it is more accurate to use the original words)
3. everything's hunky dory.
Now, this would imply that you can go on and do whatever you like now and it'll all be just washed under the bridge, no problem.
Of course this isn't true. In fact, according to the Bible it's basically impossible NOT to sin, if you're human, so at this point I have to ask what happens to all those post-salvation sins? Do you just keep claiming Jesus over and over? Does he come back endlessly and wash it all up? Personally I'd think eventually he'd get pretty tired of that; salvation is not cheap and not to be used as an excuse to go on and do whatever awful things you want to do.
The way we view karma is as a law, independent of other things. Consider the law 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. The thing with laws is that they operate regardless of belief so that part doesn't really come into it.
There's different kinds of karma, and they all carry their own baggage. That's too involved for here.
There are instances in the Bible that point to a belief in reincarnation. People asked John the Baptist whether he was Elijah. Of course, Elijah was dead and gone, so that would mean that they believed that he could be reborn again in a different body. Also, the man who was born blind: they asked who had sinned, he or his parents, that caused him to be born blind. Asking whether the man had sinned would presumably imply a previous lifetime, unless you'd like to posit that he sinned whilst still in utero.
Martin Luthers's words remind me
...well, of the Catholic church
right across the street from the
Prebyterian church. They had signs out front and....one thing led to another:
Catholic sign:
All Dogs Go To Heaven
Prebyterian sign:
Only Humans Go To Heaven
-Read The Bible!
Catholic sign:
God Loves All His Creatures
-Dogs included
Prebyterian sign:
Dogs Don't Have Souls
-This is NOT Open for Debate
Catholic sign:
Catholic Dogs Go To Heaven
Presbyterian dogs can talk to
their pastor
Prebyterian sign:
Converting to Catholicism Does
Not Grant Your Dog A Soul
Catholic sign:
Free Dog Souls With Conversion
Prebyterian sign:
Dogs Are Animals, There Aren't
Any Rocks In Heaven Either
Catholic sign:
All Rocks Go To Heaven
..and ol Luther isn't here to
defend himself. :)
Cute, BB. Stand by for a Post and Maybe Two Relating to Satyavati's Comment.
For Now, you can Click on Home in Order to get to my most Recent Post and Response to Satyavati. By Tomorrow, there will be a Second such Post, so you will Need to Keep Clicking on Newer Post, if you want to Read the Responses in Order.
Generally when the "suffering of the righteous' is discussed, the
old book of Job comes up. "old" because it is thought to be very ancient-there is no reference to Israel, the exodus, mosaic law or the tabernacle. We might note that
'Job' can mean different things liquistically: in Hebrew it means
'persecuted one', in Arabic it means 'repentant one'. But in essence, IMHO, it seems but a precurser to the Hebrew 'guilt'
which runs through much ot the OT:
..follow the commandments, stray
and your entire people will suffer.
(I'm gonna stick with randomness..
bad things happen to good people and darned if good things don't happen to bad people/things happen,
good or bad..to people that are
good or bad)
Interesting Comment, BB. I'll be Back Later with some sort of a Job Response.
You always Make me Think, BB. I did not Know about the Arabic Meaning of Job's Name. Since the Book was Written such a Very Long Time Ago, though, I have Realized that I should not Assume that this One was Originally Written in Hebrew. Let's see what my Study Bibles say.
Charles Ryrie Thinks that the Book was Written in the Second Millennium BC, during the time of Abraham. His 4th Point was the same as yours in that "4.) The Absence of any Reference to the Nation of Israel or the Mosaic Law Suggests a Pre-Mosaic Date." Here are the Other Three Points...
1.) Job Lived more than 140 Years, not an Uncommon Life Span from Abraham's Era.
2.) The Economy of Job's Day was such that Wealth was Measured in Terms of Livestock.
3.) Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Job was the Priest of his Family.
Another Possibility Mentioned is the Era of King Solomon, in which Case it would be Regarded as a Dramatic Poem Describing Real Events, but not a Verbatim Report.
The Commentators of the Zondervan Study Bible think that the Author was an Israelite, though, because of the Use of the Name Yahweh, yet they state that there was Obviously an even Earlier either Written or Oral Tradition that he was Inspired by because of the Same Reasons that were also Listed by Ryrie.
Also, the Presence of the Earliest Written Targum (Aramaic Text) Places the Date of the Original in the First or Second Century BC.
This is the Study Bible that Talked about Language, yet I'm still not Clear on the Language of the Original, because what ever it was, it was Translated First into Syriac, Aramaic and Latin. Apparently the Original Language Contained Unusual Words and Style that was Difficult to Translate. Though the Beginning and End were Written in Prose, the Main Body of it was Poetry. The Difficulty in Translating this Highly Creative and Poetic Work resulted in Later Translations that "Frequently Differ Wildly", thus the Various Meanings of Job's Name.
I Wonder why my Study Bible doesn't Name the Original Language. Perhaps they don't even Know.
Anyway, even Aramaic is not the Same as Arabic. So Far, I've Reached a Dead End in the Quest for the Original Meaning of Job's Name, though you are Probably sending me Down a Rabbit Hole that doesn't Matter anyway. Funny I Took the Bate. Huh?
None of this has to do with my Original thoughts that I'm Going to have to Come Back to Later, since this Little Rabbit Hole has Made me Tired. Lol.
I should have linked the commentary about the derivation of the name 'Job'..can't seem to find it now. Apparently most scholars agree the book was quite old relative to other OT books, and like several was most likely an
oral tradition (which would have to been Hebrew) which was not put into script until later..the beginning and ending use a different metre. The philology
of ancient mideast language adds a bit of mystery, Aramaic being the
'lingua franca' from fairly early.
But, like Ugaritic, Canaanite and Phoenician, Hebrew was of the family known as Northwest Semitic, so they were more or less intelligble to the learned of the time, like Rabbis etc. Arabic is
more loosely related, being a Central Semitic type..and again
we need sort out the precurser
Akkadian writings. Most interestingly, all these languages
use the same semitic lyricism and similar philosophies. The Hebrews
were unique, however, in their
monotheism. I tend to agree with your source..prior to Hebrew settlement..which would make it
necessarily an oral tradition.
Now then, the rabbit hole leads us to Alice's Adventures in Wonderland...so watch out for the Mad Hare, the White Rabbit and the
grinning Chesire Cat and that nefarious Queen of Hearts! :)
I Sort of Wanted to Write about the Content of Job, rather then just the Meaning of his Name. Here is the Link I found though that Starts Out with a Little Discussion of the Name. The Discussion of Job's Name Starts about 4 Paragraphs Down.
The Voice, Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians.
The Definitions Listed are "to show hostility", "Enemy of God", "Alienated", "Repent" and "Return".
Sounds sort of like the Entire Journey, Before and After Finding the Lord.
You are really a Mystery to me, BB. With all your Studies of Religious, as well as Biblical History. You Never did Find God.
I Guess it is just something that you have to Experience, rather then Study. A More Personal Analysis of the Book of Job is on the Tip of my Tongue and yet for some Reason God is Withholding it and Placing Tiredness there instead.
Let us Walk through the Rabbit Holes of Wonderland awhile until God Reveals something more Meaningful and Real. For now, God just says "Wait", yet if God does not Exist, then what in the World am I Talking about? Why do I Sense His Presence? In Fact, you know what? Why do I have any thoughts at all?
And What is with these Old Hymns? What are these Hymn Writers Writing about and Singing About? Who is this Non-Existent God that Moves the Hearts of so Many? What does it all Mean?
Praise to the Lord, The Almighty, the King of Creation.
Oh my Soul Praise Him, For He is my Strength and Salvation.
All ye' who Hear, Now to His Temple Draw Near.
Praise Him in Glad Adoration."
What does it Mean that it is Only God that Changes Hearts and Why does Prayer Help? Why is it that when nothing is Working, when I Bow my Head and Pray to God, things all just Fall into Place and the Right Solution, the One that Actually Works, Comes to Mind? Forget the Question, Why is there Pain? How about Why is there Comfort and Peace and Joy and all that is Positive and Why does Prayer Help us in our Quest for these Things?
Considering fate/randomness, we should also consider the great wisdom of Ecclesiastes 3..the 'for every time there is a season' chapter:
19-For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
and wherein the wise men of the
Hebrews concluded:
22- Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? ...
Wise words for that time and perhaps all time, IMO. We are subject to the vicissitudes of life as all living things; how better to end the observations
of life and purpose than the question mark at the end of verse
3-22?
Ah, but you have Forgotten a Very Important Key Verse in Ecclesiastes, BB, that is Described as "the conclusion of the whole matter".
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13, KJV)
Your Verse may be the Conclusion of Chapter 3, but the One I just Quoted is the Conclusion of the Book of Ecclesiastes.
When I Typed the Words "Fear God, Ecclesiastes", I came up with this Sermon...
Sermon on the Fear of God
I was going to Quote for you Verses such as Proverbs 1:7, 9:10 and Psalms 111:10, yet you can Read these just as well Under Point 3 of the Linked Sermon. Basically, the Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of both Wisdom and Knowledge.
I wish that I could Quote all 6 Verses from Ecclesiastes that Talk about the Fear of the Lord, yet you may just have to Look them Up. Here are the References; Ecclesiastes 3:14, 5:7, 7:18, 8:12, 13 & 12:13.
Proverbs has 19 such Verses; too many to even List, but it Could be an Interesting Study.
And here is another Verse that is similar to the one that you Quoted...
"24) There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God." (Ecclesiastes 2:24, KJV)
Yet the Conclusion at the End is to Fear the Lord.
You Know, I am Finally getting the Idea of how to Use BibleGateway.com. Check this Out. I was Able to Get it to List and Quote all the Verses that I just Listed from Ecclesiastes.
And Here are the Ones from Proverbs.
The Only Problem is that the Actual Word Searches Search the Entire Bible and I do not Know how to Make it Only Search One Book, without Actually Typing Out all the References, after doing my Word Search from another Off Line Source. This is why the Second of the Links I just Gave Contain Extra Verses besides those in Proverbs. Oh well.
Thanks BTW, BB, for Inspiring me to Read and Study some Scriptures.
One last observation from the rabbit hole: original sin. (Mostly thought up by St. Augustine, that
sourpuss thinker who brought us
predestination!) Being a non sinner, it is a tough one for me :)
but, I bet you would be interested
in the sin/guilt paradigm from the standpoint of a neruophysiological interpetation of this christian tenet gee, two of your favorite subjects!
I'll have to Ask your Wife about that Non-sinner Claim of Yours. lol.
Is that what you Think, though, that the Idea of Original Sin came from St. Augustine? I guess you Probably Think that Every Idea has some Origin from the Brain of Some Human and that God had Nothing to do with it? Yet where do Ideas come from anyway?
And also, let me Ask you This...does the Original Sin Idea have some Evolutionary, Natural Selection Purpose? If so, why doesn't the Sin Idea Matter that much in the Animal Kingdom? With them, the Survival of the Fittest Works just Fine, but we have a Conscience that urges us to be more Civil then that. At Least most of us do.
The Original Sin Idea Originated from the Bible, BB.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12, KJV)
"Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so, by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18, KJV)
I'm afraid that Paul gets the Credit for this, through the Lord Jesus Christ, not St. Augustine.
In Response to the Link, I'm not so sure that the Original Sin Idea is Lacking from the Pulpit Today. It Really Depends on which Church One Attends. Original Sin is a Part of the Basic Gospel Message because it is what we are Saved from, or Actually, it is the Penalty of this that we are Saved from.
The Basic Gospel Message Generally Starts with this Verse...
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23, KJV)
This is True because of the Sin Nature. This is then Followed by this Verse...
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23, KJV)
There are Other Verses that are Used, but these are the Two that are the Most Key and the Most Common. The Two Verses in my Previous Comment are Good Gospel Message Verses as well, so when I read the Sentence from the Linked Article...
"it is probably safe to say that few sermons today are being delivered from any Christian pulpit in the United States on original sin."
This Shocked me, because the Gospel Message, or the Message about Salvation can not be Presented without Talking about Original Sin. Though I have Heard it said that the Gospel Message has Far too Often been Absent from Catholic Churches and this has been a Considerable Concern of many Protestants, even more than any other Issue.
Many a Protestant Missionary has gone to Mexico to Spread this Basic Gospel Message among the Mexican Catholics, while also Giving Aid to the Poor. And there are Probably Still Catholics in the US that Need this Message as well. The Whole Reason that we Need Salvation from our Sins is because of the Original Sin.
Remember too, BB, that I don't Believe in Evolution. Sin and the Conscience is not Actually Necessary for Survival of our Species and Evolution and the Law of the Survival of the Fittest is all about Survival and Nothing Else.
Well, I've Read the First of what is 4 Pages when Printed. Figures it would Turn Out to be an Evolutionary Thing. We'll see if the Rest of it Addresses what I just said.
Yep, St. Augustine. This interesting source
sort of describes the 'evolution' of the original sin construct. Not sure of its validity, probably depends on the reader, but it notes
three theories of original sin:
5th Century- The Augustinian Theory
17th Centruy-The Federal Theory
(Cocceius)
17th Century-The Theory of Mediate
Imputation (Placeus)
..the last one was interesting in that Placeus concluded that any sin
of Adam's could not be forever blamed on his progeny. However, his Church condemned his work at a Synod in 1644 so he came up with the Mediate Imputation idea.
..Historically speaking, there was much ferment in Augustine's time;
the Donatist heresy was a major problem in his diocese and being a
reformed rake and n'er do well, he
was very forceful in his views..among which was that old
bugagoo -sex- Thus being born as
a result of sex we are conceived and born in sin. Pretty harsh. So
much so that a pagan emperor who followed Constantine (Julian the Apostate) noted that Augustine would have 'babies fall from trees' that they be the innocent newborns we prefer to see. The point is, IMO, that for many years these things have been argued about, agreed and disagreed on,
changed, refined and polished.
Now then "I guess you Probably Think that Every Idea has some Origin from the Brain of Some Human" ..sure..and its ALL Adam's fault! :)
Ok BB,
That's Enough. I have already Written Enough Notes in Order to Produce another Post from your Previous Link. As you Know. I can Only Read so Much.
It's Been Quite Awhile since I've Studied Philosophy.
Weren't we Eventually Going to Talk about Job? I have Totally Lost my Train of Thought and that's not Adam's Fault. I Think it's yours.
Thanks for Closing with Humor, BB. That's such a Nice Touch and it Prevents me from Beating you Up. lol.
Well, Ok. I Glanced at the Link, but to be Honest, BB, it has Caused me to Feel Troubled. Like I said, the Original Sin Idea is at the Very Core of the Gospel Message. It is not just a Side Idea. It is at the Very Core of the Salvation Message, in that Christ Died for Our Sins. If there is no Sin Nature or Original Sin that we Need Deliverance from, then Christ Died a Horrible Death for no Reason.
Giving Credit for this Idea to St. Augustine, rather then to One of the Actual Writers of the Scriptures, Namely Paul, is Highly Disturbing. Everywhere I Turn, BB, Christianity has been Under Attack and I believe that this Trend is Motivated by Satan, not by the Truth.
I Truly do Wish that you were on my Side, rather then in the Enemy Camp, yet you are what you are. Perhaps One Day God will Pull on your Heart and you will Realize what is Actually True.
Misquoting, questioning and twisting of scripture, hey? A certain dazzling serpent back in a Garden way back started that, nothing new there.
God doe NOT want mankind to KNOW that He exists. He wants you, BB, to choose to believe in God by faith and then depend upon that faith. Once you do, a surety that is a kind of knowing will be yours.
But many people choose to use observation and logic and they use their finite minds to judge whether or not the Creator God exists. They want to KNOW. God will not engrave flashing lime-yellow "Jesus Saves" signs on the bottom of the clouds.
He's already revealed a marvelous Universe and irreducibly complex organisms, the sophisticated DNA coding system that keeps surprising us and the Bible, that repository of history and wisdom and science and the logical presentation of the covenant man can enter into with God and live with Him forever.
'Logic' and 'faith' aren't compatible.
You either have one or the other. Faith demands, as the Bible said, a belief in things unseen. This would be contrariwise to logic, which works on an empirical basis.
There's no 'logic' to a 'covenant' with an unseen, unknown supernatural being that promises eternal life (with this same unknown supernatural being, who will be equally as quick to condemn a person to an eternal 'damnation' if the conditions aren't met).
The simple idea that out of billions of years, a person gets a maximum of 100 to make a decision that the rest of eternity, apparently, depends upon, in itself has little logic.
Faith cannot work in the presence of logic, because faith itself demands one to suspend reason and rationality in favor of belief.
I'm not knocking it. I'm just saying.
You Guys Go Ahead and Talk. I'll be back Later This Evening.
Ok. I Guess I Meant that I'll be Back This Morning. Oh Well.
Thanks for your Comment, Radar, and what is Happening here is the Twisting of not Only Scripture, but also of History. That is Giving Credit to those who are not the Original Biblical Authors of the Ideas that were Given to them by God and then also Adding to those Ideas Things that Go against Scripture and Against God.
"God will not engrave flashing lime-yellow 'Jesus Saves' signs on the bottom of the clouds."
No but he did Make a Certain Cell in the Shape of a Cross. Ever Seen Laminin? The Faith Expected is not Entirely Blind and it Starts with a Mustard Seed.
The Way I see Faith and the Intellect is that Once we Learn that God is Faithful in this and this and this, we can Safely Assume that He will be Faithful in all Things and also Once we Learn that the Bible is Valid in this and this and this, we can Safely Assume that the Bible is Valid. Then Once we Experience God in our Hearts, this is when we can Know that we Know that we Know.
Satyavati,
What I Said to Radar Relates to you as well.
"with this same unknown supernatural being, who will be equally as quick to condemn a person to an eternal 'damnation' if the conditions aren't met"
But the Conditions are Easy. All One has to do is Believe. God does the Rest.
"faith itself demands one to suspend reason and rationality in favor of belief."
That would be Blind Faith, yet I do not Feel that Faith in God is Entirely Blind.
After Radar Commented and Brought me back to this Post, I Decided to Reread the Post and the above Comments.
Once again, Radar, the Comment that I Quoted at the end of the Above Post Came from you and it is Excellent!
For BB, I am Brought Back to his Statement that Randomness "is simplest to Accept" and just Feel like saying that, at Death, it is not, because Randomness Implies no Spirituality and no After Life and this Leaves Life without any Purpose or Meaning.
Oh, I Guess I did say that, but it's Worth Repeating.
As to the Verse in Revelations that I Quoted, "15) I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. 16) So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth." (Revelations 3:15-16, NRSV), I have heard some use this Verse when they say, "If you are going to Sin, then do it Fully and get it Out of your System.", then you will be able to Come Back more Fully to God.
That is what I Thought of in Relation to the Martin Luther Quote, "Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.", though I'm not Certain that I really Agree with that because Strong Sin Often Comes with Strong Consequences.
There was also a Verse that I was Thinking about in Relation to Bad Things Happening to Good People and Good Things Happening to Bad People...
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45, KJV)
Funny. I Thought that there was also a Verse Like this in either Proverbs of Ecclesiastes, but I can't Find it. The One I Quoted is Jesus' Words.
Perhaps One Day I will Still Talk about the Book of Job on this Post and about the Fact that the Theme was not Sin and Guilt but Pride and Self-Righteousness. Here is a Chapter about that that I have Linked to before; Job 38.
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